Thread 2: VAT on school Fees- High court challenge

[EHCPerhaps]

Following on from thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5160565-vat-on-school-fees-high-court-challenge

Background to legal challenge (not yet a case):
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13824931/amp/Single-mother-autistic-child-launches-High-Court-challenge-Labours-private-schools-VAT-raid-claiming-violates-daughters-right-education.html

Sorry to begin a new thread, OP, but your thread filled up very quickly!

'Of course not, some parents will be just fine with PE teacher covering Physics.'

Ah yes of course, I forgot about that urban myth.

Urban myth?

PE teachers retrain in maths to fill school gaps https://www.bbc.com/news/education-68602435

“One of her PE teacher colleagues….has also taken up the challenge of learning to teach maths - a subject she….stopped after doing her GCSEs…..says the Year 9 top set she is currently teaching keep her on her toes, as they are "exceedingly good at maths". So far they've been fab - I think they like being able to challenge me," she says.”

So we have Y9 students (not even GCSE level) “challenging” the teacher because they’re apparently great at maths. It’s a teacher’s job to challenge the children, not the other way round.

‘Like looking for a unicorn’: inside English schools’ recruitment crisis | Teacher shortages | The Guardian

“My son is in year 8, and I don’t think he has ever been taught by a specialist maths teacher,” she adds. “As a parent you don’t get told. No one advertises that their school is using PE teachers to teach maths, but most schools are having to do it.”

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=27f1fc4e-7f43-4440-b88d-d5a980445a5d

“The Government must decide whether it is serious about generating additional tax revenue by growing the UK economy – including by attracting wealthy taxpayers here – or whether instead it wants to pursue a self-defeating agenda by which it makes the UK unattractive to current and potential investors who can choose to go elsewhere: it cannot do both.”

VAT on private schools won’t generate extra tax revenue. It is a fake tax and a scam on the taxpayer. Just like some of the proposed non-dom changes. Most tax lawyers and even senior civil servants have been warning the same for months.

Yet some old school ideologists just really want to be right. Despite the harm it will inevitably causes, not just to individual children, including disabled children, but teaching staff, whole communities and sadly, the country at large.

Private school children aren't rich, private schools don't have money, we're doing the state a favour.

Quick, mention the bullying (which doesn't happen at private school)

You understand your objections are just vague nonsense to justify protecting your own privilege.

'Private school children aren't rich, private schools don't have money, we're doing the state a favour.'

Their parents are very well off, but if some don't think someone like Rebecca in that BBC news sad-face story paying out £60k a year in fees is well off then they don't.
I suppose the idea of what privilege actually means in subjective...

'The last time she studied maths was at A-level, but this year she has retrained alongside her job after the school got funding as part of a national programme aimed at boosting maths teaching in schools.'

So a qualified and experienced teacher, with a degree, and who did maths A levels is now re-training to become a maths teacher. AND?

My friend had a maths degree, taught maths but she's good a languages, so also did a French/German/Spanish degree and has moved to teaching MFL. 25 years teaching experience, or are we still in that space where we think PE teachers are all buffoons who weren't good for anything else? Because I'm sure that idea died back in the 60s...

My DD's Geography teacher is also a football coach for her team at school, is that allowed? He did play professionally before becoming a teacher... it's no PhD from Cambs obvs, but still...

To return to the High Court case? Will the claim be lodged straight after the Budget? When it is pending, can they still impose the VAT? If it is found to be illegal and schools go bust because of it, what are the potential consequences for the Government?

And then if the plaintiff loses, they can appeal to the Court of Appeal and after that potentially to the Supreme Court? And as long as people keep funding the legal costs, then this can delay the VAT being implemented?
So basically every private school parent contributes £50 overall and there has to be a substantial delay?

Private school children aren't rich.

Most under 18 year olds at private schools have assets of less than £1000, for example my 6 and 8 year old don’t even have a job or own a rental property. Low achievers they are.

private schools don't have money

The vast majority don’t.

we're doing the state a favour.

Saving the state £4 billion a year.

Quick, mention the bullying (which doesn't happen at private school)

Don’t get this one.

You understand your objections are just vague nonsense to justify protecting your own privilege.

Nope, they’re facts. To me, it’s blatantly obvious why closing schools is a bad idea so the onus is on the person wanting to close down schools to have some pragmatic reasoning other than magic predictions and that they suspect the parents vote Tory.

That’s plan A. Only really have to hold out until the U.K. moves closer to the EU again or Labour are out. Next stage/plan B would be ECHR (of course Labour would drop the policy at this stage)

You missed my post about parliamentary sovereignty. If the UK parliament passes a law to impose VAT of school fees, the Supreme Court has no authority to overturn it.

"Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution."

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

The budget will be passed into law. The House Of Lords does not interfere with the Finance Bill.

So no, even if you all pay your £50 it cannot be delayed or overturned.

There are no consequences.

Technically true, they could ignore any rulings they wanted to. I’d be amazed if they go down that route, but then again they are quite a whacky bunch.

So after the Court of Appeal it’s straight to the European Court of Human Rights? With the French frothing on the side about having to pay VAT on lycee fees for their diplomatic staff. And Starmer simultaneously negotiating closer alignment in Brussels. I don’t think so! It’s not politically feasible one bit and @remotecontrolowls most likely Starmer knew this all along and you got played.

You clearly haven’t read the article, or indeed any of the other many articles highlighting the recruitment crisis. That article references one teacher who has no maths qualification beyond GCSE (the level taken by everyone).

“The report warns there is a risk of a substantial impact on education as non-specialists are used to fill gaps across all subjects with teacher shortages.”

“"Maths - it's unlikely we will get a specialist apply."
He has filled the past few maths teacher vacancies with primary school-trained teachers rather than those with a maths degree or maths teaching specialism.
Another school, in Cheshire, told BBC News that it had no applicants after several rounds of advertising for maths specialists. It is now renaming the job advert to be "PE and maths" or "PE and science"”

I still do not understand. The courts delayed the implementation of the Tory Rwanda scheme. So how exactly was that any different? I know this one is couched as a “tax”, but I do not believe it is a tax. It is a discriminatory privilege penalty and that is a breach of the human rights act.

Because the Rwanda scheme involved individual cases.

The Bill passed but no one was ever put on a plane because the courts can rule on individual cases. It could stop individuals but not overturn the law.

Which is why the Labour Government cancelled it on its first day in office.

They cancelled it without a clue what to do instead

So the courts could theoretically delay VAT being imposed on the school fees of individual children with SEND in a class action on behalf of those children? (Obviously they would be anonymous as is the case for under 16).

Is the case being brought a class action or just for one child at the moment?

The case is just one child, not a class action. And it's only a pre-action letter at the moment, because they can't do anything until the law is passed.

But no, I still don't think the courts can change tax law.

I'm sure the law firm in question knows this - so why would they possibly go ahead?

"Sinclairslaw also plans to launch a crowdfunding campaign to support the legal challenge, with costs potentially reaching several hundred thousand pounds."

Maybe that's why.

'That’s plan A. Only really have to hold out until the U.K. moves closer to the EU again or Labour are out. '

That's cloud cuckoo land... The EU are suddenly going to step in, post Brexit when the UK voted to leave the EU, to do the rich families of the UK a favour? Mmm...

'I still do not understand. The courts delayed the implementation of the Tory Rwanda scheme. So how exactly was that any different? '

Yes, refugees who've fled war torn countries being sent against their will to a continent they have no ties to, and wealthy people having a tax break taken away, so many parallels.

Privilege really sees no irony.

I meant moving closer to the EU as in having to align with their rules and laws, one of which is that education tax is illegal.

@remotecontrolowls - the High Court would throw out a vexatious claim so if it gets accepted, there will be grounds. If it makes it to the Supreme Court and or European Court of Human Rights it will be very embarrassing for Starmer. I am assuming they will keep going for as long as they get crowd funding and because it is spread across hundreds of thousands of families with an interest and possibly grandparents too I suspect they will raise the funds.

“Yes, refugees who've fled war torn countries being sent against their will to a continent they have no ties to, and wealthy people having a tax break taken away, so many parallels.”

Nice try. We are talking about children with SEND here. Living in the U.K.