Thread 2: VAT on school Fees- High court challenge

[EHCPerhaps]

Following on from thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5160565-vat-on-school-fees-high-court-challenge

Background to legal challenge (not yet a case):
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13824931/amp/Single-mother-autistic-child-launches-High-Court-challenge-Labours-private-schools-VAT-raid-claiming-violates-daughters-right-education.html

Sorry to begin a new thread, OP, but your thread filled up very quickly!

'There are about 10% of kids in PS who are on 100%+ bursaries. '

You have a zero in the wrong place - it's ONE percent, not 10% and TBH I'm surprised it's even that high.

“Hardly the end of the world”. Seriously, do you actually think about what you are writing? If you bothered to look at the admission pages on LA sites you would see that many actively warn against parents moving their DC’s to other schools due to the disruption to their education. So it may not be the end of the World for you, but it will be for some kids. And then there’s the staff losing their jobs, all because of a Government policy that won’t generate much if anything and the way things are going, will actually cost the taxpayer.

As for spare places, there are many locations in the country that don’t have spare places. In fact, in my local area primary children are currently being taught in a makeshift school made up of portacabins because the LA cannot keep up with the demand for school places and new schools are not being built quickly enough. The majority of these kids are from families moving out of London, which does have capacity, but that doesn’t help families 50 miles away does it.

Classic, of course it’s not about envy or spite is it.

There are PLENTY of jobs for teachers and support staff, all over the country, at the moment, so I don't think teachers possibly losing positions in private schools is the disaster you seem to think it is. Unless of course they don't actually have a PGCE or teaching qualification - they'll have to skill up and get formal qualifications because unlike private schools, state schools do require teachers who are properly qualified.

Children move schools all the time. Sometimes for parent's jobs, or they move house or they move to a school for personal reasons. ALL the time. In fact, these VAT boards are full of posts from parents who moved their children from state schools into private ones mid-year, or after a few years, or year 4, or year 11 or year 13 or whatever.
Change happens, change is inevitable, for all of us for all sorts of reasons.

The sky isn't falling in. Most pupils will stay put, some will move, some schools will continue to have lots of parents willing to pay extortionate fees, some will close. It isn't up to the government to prop up the private sector with tax breaks and charity status.

@goodluckbinbin - until now Academies have been allowed to also hire “unqualified” teachers.
Officials at the DFE are working on implementing a Labour manifesto pledge to introduce a requirement for all new teachers to either hold or be working towards qualified teacher status.
It is another massive Labour mistake.
Until now eg uni lecturers could easily teach in schools or people retiring early with amazing industry knowledge.

We are going to end up with a massive range of recently “qualified” young inexperienced teachers, at huge taxpayer cost.

We just need the teaching unions to wake up to this shower of mess. Just because it wears a red cloak, does not mean it is red.

because unlike private schools, state schools do require teachers who are properly qualified.

Really? I’m sure I’ve read on here that the geography teacher has had to teach physics or whatever because there wasn’t a physics teacher available.
I’ve also read on here that private school teachers wouldn’t last five minutes in the ‘real world’ of state school class rooms.

Despite what many LAs think, the law and the way to enforce the law (either via JR or SENDIST, depending on the issue) is exactly the same whichever LA you live in. That is the same for all parents in England. Different in Wales, Scotland and NI. I haven’t posted anything about any local circumstances.

I can’t believe that I would be the first parent you hear this from?

Actually, the only other person who has said something remotely similar is another poster on MN who also doesn’t know the difference between me posting the law/enforcement (which is the same everywhere) and posting about local circumstances. Everything I have posted applies to all in England. Could you quote exactly where I have said something that is about a specific area rather than the nation as a whole? The other person I asked couldn’t because I hadn’t actually done so.

You were the one who mentioned “for parents to enforce their child’s legal right to a suitable school funded by the LA can take a long time and it contains a lot of uncertainty for the family. It can cost an open ended amount for legal advice, I believe right up to barrister level.” The way to enforce a “legal right to a suitable school funded by the LA” is via SENDIST. SENDIST is the First Tier SEND Tribunal. If you don’t even know what a Tribunal is, I’m not sure why you are posting the above. Yet alone incorrectly claiming “an open ended amount for legal advice, I believe right up to barrister level” is required (it isn’t and the majority do not have representation).

As has been said before, in order to enforce legal timeframes, you need to go down the JR process. No-one has to accept unlawfulness. This is how you get the right of appeal to appeal to SENDIST. Both IPSEA and SOSSEN’s information on their websites discuss this. A telephone appointment isn’t required. Reading IPSEA and SOSSEN’s website would help you to understand the process better. Similar for s19 provision.

I disagree with you that assessment reports would not be needed by parents over the summer period. Or that they are not needed quickly by parents. Whatever gives you that idea?

Whatever gives me that idea. Oh, I don’t know; the years working day in, day out in the system supporting thousands of parents across the country. If you aren’t at the stage of Tribunal, you don’t need independent assessments for it. No-one needs independent assessments over the summer break for SENDIST (which is what your posts were about - “enforce their child’s legal right to a suitable school funded by the LA”) because the period to submit such independent assessments to SENDIST isn’t only a couple of months. Such evidence can actually be submitted even after the evidnece deadline given by SENDIST.

Did you miss the part where I said if parents can’t afford IPSEA’s online courses, they have funded places or just ignore it? And it isn’t a different course per stage of the process. If you actually looked at the content of level 1 you would see it covers the whole process from initial EHCNA request to Tribunal. For many parents, level 1 is sufficient. What actually happens is level 2&3 build on the content of level 1.

Here you go with the private school teachers are not qualified crap…if their teachers are so shit why are you so hell bent on destroying them?! I know that some of the teachers are not “qualified” in the traditional sense at my DC’s private school. However, they have the relevant sports coaching badges plus hands on professional experience. So, for example, I am quite happy with my DC being taught by a former England international player even if they didn’t go to university.

As for moving schools, being moved from a school that you are happy at is completely different to being moved from a school mid year because you are being bullied or it’s failing to meet your needs. You know that. And parents are told time and time again in here not to move their children if they can help, particulary during criticsl
yearsZ LA’s wouldn't warn against moving pupils if it wasn’t an issue.

The Government isn’t propping up private schools. Private schools save the taxpayer a lot of money. It would cost over £4 billion to educate all private schools kids in the state system.

EndlessLight no need to be so antsy with me. I wish you well in your work of supporting parents.

Not antsy, responding to your posts on a public forum.

My DC had Cambridge PhD teaching them Chemistry. I wasn't bothered about this teacher not having teaching qualification. This teacher will not move to state. Ever.

I've learnt that these threads are not discussions, they are support groups, which I suppose is fine.

Any challenge is filed under stupid, irrelevant or spiteful, however well informed.

unlike private schools, state schools do require teachers who are properly qualified.

You might want to fact check this. Unqualified teachers can teach in academies and free schools. That accounts for around 82% of state secondary schools.

In any case I’d prefer an “unqualified” phd physics student teaching physics rather than a “qualified” PE teacher teaching physics. “Unqualified” teachers often have brilliant real-life experience in their chosen field of teaching.

I’m sure there are lots of other reasons other than spite or stupidity to limit parental education choice, force schools to close, disrupt children’s education and most likely increase the education tax burden …it’s just I can’t think of any !! Maybe you could enlighten me, leaving out vague pious 6th form politics.

Parental education choice is limited by private schools all the time. That's literally the point of them.

Since 1980, fees rose by more than a factor of three in real terms after allowing for inflation. In 1980, average fees were 20% of median household income; by 2014, fees were 50% of median household income.

So parental choice has been limited massively over the past 40 years because parents that once would have can no longer afford them. You are happy for that to exist as long as you are on the right side of the line. 1% of children received full bursaries so even scholarships mean that families have to have large funds available.

Schools will only be forced to close if they are not financially viable. This happens to businesses all the time and they are told to adapt or die. Also, state schools, particularly in London are closing all the time due to falling birth rate and so many people with children moving out of London due to house price inflation. Encouraging more children into state education will literally stop schools closing.

Disrupt children's education. There is limited evidence of this. Most people will wait for natural exit points or will find a way. Children's education gets disrupted all the time due to house moves, bullying, not liking. particular school, job moves. A small number of children having to move school is not a reason to not impose VAT on the large majority who won't.

Most likely increase the education tax burden - the jury is out on this and I do not believe it will. I'm happy to come back if that is not the case. But also, I would be happy with an increased state tax burden if it meant that standards in state education improved as a result. I genuinely believe having more engaged, privileged children in the state sector would achieve that. So either way, it's a positive.

At least I did 6th form politics, pious or not.

'My DC had Cambridge PhD teaching them Chemistry. I wasn't bothered about this teacher not having teaching qualification. This teacher will not move to state. Ever.'

Having a PhD doesn't make you a good teacher, I work with plenty of PhDs, who have the social skills of, well, they don't have much in the way of social skills, nor are they good at explaining their subject to others.
If that teacher would rather be unemployed than work in a state school, or leave teaching for another profession then that's their call, isn't it?
'Cambridge PhD' isn't really as impressive to most parents than private school parents might think...

So in summary your reasons for supporting are:

Educational choices are limited anyway as private school fees are high, why not limit parental choice further?

it’s not my kids affected , so they’ll be fine plus who cares as some kids get bullied and have to move schools.

Even if the education tax burden does go up and we have less cash per pupil in state education, state schools will still be better because of the supreme magic of ex private school kids.

translation;
Spite

Not at all.

I think more children in the state sector will mean more educational choices for everyone as more state schools will be viable.

No policy would ever be introduced if there were to be no individuals affected or disrupted in the short term. That's not a reason to not do it.

It doesn't necessarily follow that there will be less cash per pupil in the state sector. First, there may not be much movement so tax raised may be substantial. Second, as yet we don't know Labour's spending plans for education but it has always been a priority in the past. The more children are in the sector, the more political will there is to prioritise it, as those with more agency are invested in it as an issue. Why do you think the conservatives have let it decay so much over the last 15 years? Because their donors and members don't use it.

Translation: actually caring about what's good for all children and society as a whole rather than pulling up the ladder on everyone else.

Come on now, we agreed no pious 6th form politics.

If that teacher would rather be unemployed than work in a state school,

They could work in a state school though if they wanted. There are lots of teachers who don’t want to work in the state sector.

So it’s not just the magic of ex private school pupils amazingly improving schools, it’s also the magic of all the spare cash we have laying around that would more than cover the £7k per pupil that state now has to cover. Quick, mention Tory donors!

Maybe this and maybe that, closing schools will save schools, privileged pupils will make state schools better…you understand it comes across as vague nonsense to justify a spiteful act against children?

You'd surprised to learn that PS interview candidates and teachers do have all required social skills in abundance.

'Cambridge PhD' isn't really as impressive to most parents than private school parents might think...
Of course not, some parents will be just fine with PE teacher covering Physics. There are plenty of threads on here discussing English teacher not knowing spellings or Math not knowing BIDMAS.

This teacher won't be unemployed - they will still teach in other PS, most likely majority foreign students and/or do private tutoring. This area of business will be especially lucrative thanks to Labour.