VAT on school fees - High Court Challenge.

[EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime]

Labour’s plan to impose VAT on private school fees in January faces a High Court legal challenge over claims it breaches human rights law.

Lawyers have written to HM Treasury arguing the policy discriminates against special needs children and has threatened court action if it is not dropped.

Showtime…

How does VAT on education achieve this?

See the post I just made....

The two are not connected, unless you can say how

In some parts of the country, i.e. not Kent or London, they are the only way out of poverty for poor but bright children.

In the 1960s and 70s maybe but grammars now are full of pupils who are there because their parents had the money to pay for expensive tutoring.

And what happens to "poor but bright" children in non grammar school areas I.e. most of the country?

You do not need tutoring as much anymore. Every other developed country is talking about AI in Education and tech investment to achieve that to not be left behind.
Yet here we are stuck in the 1970s? What is the actual point? First they do not invest in the basic aka buildings and now no proposed investment in the biggest thing facing us right now to stay globally relevant?
Create culture wars yet again to detract from what actually matters?

https://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/en/099734306182493324/pdf/IDU152823b13109c514ebd19c241a289470b6902.pdf?_gl=1kdd7ka_gcl_au*NjU5NTY2MDc0LjE3MjU4MjQ2MzY.

Funding isnt the reason why state schools fail.

There are multiple examples of highly successful state schools having less funding than failing state schools.

Closing successful schools won't stop some state schools failing it will have absolutely zero impact on them.

If we close Eton it won't make all the failing comprehensives better.

Closing down successful private schools does not improve failing ones. It won't have any impact on equality or outcomes.

Perhaps we should copy the Dutch system which the OECD has said creates some of the most equal educational outcomes for students regardless of background?

The Dutch system which does create the equal educational outcomes you want has more private schools as percentage than any country in Europe and the Dutch state funds private schools!!!

I did say - read the post again.

Does the crowd funding for the legal case qualify for gift aid?

They went to independent schools on scholarships and bursaries.

In future, not so much.

The Dutch system is similar to Finland in that private schools receive state funds but they have to follow the same national curriculum as state schools and they can't charge fees that generate a profit - Finland's schools regularly top the OECD rankings with almost zero difference in attainment and outcomes between private and state schools.

That's how you promote equality - ensure both operate within the same framework - charging VAT for private fees is one of those steps.

In both examples you use, neither country charges VAT on private schools....

Do parents pay VAT on private school fees in Finland and Holland?

Hmm... no.

And how about state funding? Does the child's education funding from the state follow the child to their private school?

Oh look. Equal state funding for public-authority and private schools.
https://www.government.nl/topics/freedom-of-education/public-authority-and-private-schools

Looks like Labour are introducing the exact opposite of these successful education systems.

That's because they can't charge fees to generate a profit....................

Umm, neither can the 70% of private schools which are charities.

Which will hopefully change.

@amigafan2003

Are you missing the point that only children in independent schools from poorer families are going to be affected by this? If it has any effect on educational inequality it can only logically increase it.

Far from being only for wealthy families as Labour would have us believe, 10% of children in independent schools are from the bottom two socioeconomic quintiles, another 25% are from the middle quintile. Labour seem to be intent on making independent schools more exclusive.

The whole thing is ideological, utterly ludicrous, and nothing at all to do with reducing inequality.

What are you hoping will change?

You want charities to be able to make a profit?

Or you want schools to no longer be charities?

If it's the latter - and you're hoping to change the definition of what constitutes a charity - I'll go warn the local donkey sanctuary and also the national trust. The former do much less good than private schools, and the latter offer less to the non-fee-paying public than private schools.

Or are you going to be super-specific, just like Labour with VAT? Anyone can set up a charity for any reason. Except private schools which educate children between the ages of 5-18. They're different. Because we don't like them.

Is your hand a bit sore clutching all those straws?
Private education is a luxury for the privileged. It should no longer be subsidised by it's taxation status.

I ttotally agree with this. If people want better state education, tax should come from wider pool. i.e. general taxation. State school parents can't demand better funding for state schools but not willing to pay towards it and expect private school parents to fund it all.

Saying it lots of times doesn't make it true.

@CurlewKate
Earlier on the thread I said;
However I guess most Labour MPs feel the same as many posters on mn, viz. private school students are all arrogant, entitled, over-privileged etc etc
To which you answered:
I'm pretty sure they don't.You have to be unimaginative, ignorant and unobservant to think that. Which, whatever else, Labour MPs tend not to be.
Then I said ‘do you think that of the posters who describe privately educated children thus?"
You answered Fortunately there are very few of them. Despite the efforts of some to convince us otherwise.

I’ve just had a look at another thread running on education which is different to this one in that most posters are saying state education is better than private. However here are some comments taken from just the first three pages which rather disproves your view there are very few posters who despise the privately educated;

I know of people who went to private who are very up themselves, haven’t advanced far in their careers and are socially unequipped to deal with anyone in society who isn’t a stereotypical “private school type

My SIL sent both her sons to a private school in Hull.They are both arrogant wankers but I can't see that it's given them anything else. Buckets of superiority with absolutely no substance

Two more uncaring and arrogant children you could never wish for but the exam results? 110%.

Most of all though, the main reason I don’t send my kids private is that many private school alumni haven’t actually learned the difference between ‘confident’ and ‘wanker’.

The amount of drug-taking and mental health issues at private schools would put me right off. Private education messes you up.

I'm ambivalent about sending my DC to private schools, insofar as private schools are set up to produce arrogant wankers

I want them to grow up in the real world, and not be entitled brats

I think many who went to private school are at high risk of becoming ignorant of others, lacking in tolerance and understanding

I wouldn't want my DC growing up only having wealthy friends. I don't think it does anyone good to have such a blinkered view of the world.

It buys your child the kind of privilege and status and networking that gives you the confidence to write an opener like that with such a gormless lack of self awareness and yet with full superiority

Education isn't a luxury. It's a social good. That's why no other country in the world taxes it.

And as for private schools being subsidised by the state or the rest of the population... Ha ha ha ha ha!

I guess you'll see that soon enough as fewer people go to private school and the state education bill goes up (slightly offset by the shrinking birthrate, but certainly higher than it would have been without VAT)

Even if private schools could no longer be charities that does not automatically mean that they would become profit generating. Who would they be generating a profit for? No one owns them! Most likely they would become companies limited by guarantee or some type of alternative legal structure would be set up specifically for former charitable private schools.

A decent education is not a luxury. In any case, VAT isn’t a tax on luxury items which is why caviar is free of VAT but loo roll is taxed.

Private education is not subsidised. There just isn’t a tax penalty on it at the moment, because pretty much every country in the world sees a decent education as a positive thing. A privately educated child is costing the taxpayer £0. A state educated child is costing the taxpayer around £7k per year.