Scrap school catchments now

[Momentumummy]

If Labour wants to eventually end parents buying privilege through private schools, it needs to go after school catchments. How can it be fair to decide schools by distance to gates when it often depends on ability to pay rent or mortgage which will usually be higher in catchment for good schools?

The only fair system is a lottery one by borough (at least for secondary when kids are old enough to travel alone). You should be allocated a place within your borough but it should be randomized and not based on distance to gates.

Different people have different priorities and that's fine. No one should be penalised for following their own priorities or dictated to by other people as to what those priorities should be

This is true in my experience of being state educated myself, and of sending my own children to a comp. MN lore holds that there is a mythical beast known as a 'leafy comp'. I'd like to be shown one that doesn't have a mix.

It might happen to be situated in a leafy area. But you can bet it takes all comers from the fringes of that area too

It’s nothing to do with wanting to protect my privilege. I have lived experience of having to travel to school when it wasn’t entirely necessary. It was awful, and detrimental to me. My school work and health suffered as a direct result. I wouldn’t want that for my children. Making everyone’s lives harder to level the playing field doesn’t make sense.

What would be fair about making an 11 year travel 11 miles (I've just looked it up) to reach their school?

I've picked a relatively simple route in that it only takes three buses. They'd have to walk half a mile to the nearest bus stop, wait for the bus. Travel into London through some of the most consistently gridlocked pinchpoints for 25 minutes (which will be nearer 45 in the morning). Then change bus stops, crossing a major road to do so, and wait for a bus travelling partially back the way they came - and they're not guaranteed to get on it - for another 45 (more like 90 in the morning, even before you take into account things like major roadworks that have been ongoing for 18 months) minutes. Mustn't forget that the kids who would have taken a different bus to go off in a different direction can't because of bridge closures that have been ongoing since about, oh, 2010. So they're all wanting the same bus. They then have to get through the town centre, never a pleasant experience, as a six minute journey can take 30 minutes. They then have to cross another major road and walk ten minutes to wait at another bus stop with all of the kids that will have piled on from another part of the borough where it comes through first for the next bit. It's now single lane. Only 39 minutes according to TfL. Let's say 40 minutes to get another mile and a half down the road, as that's far more realistic, then you have a major junction where everybody has to go through to reach the A roads. Takes about 20 minutes to get round it. Now we've got a relatively clear bit until it reaches another A road+ M25 peel off. So it's gridlocked again. Now it's got to go up a hill. Single lane, residential, cars parked. Can't do it in winter because of how steep it is, by the way. And now we're across into downlands. Lot of snow this way in winter. There's also the only other road closed for 6 months for gas main replacements. And now we're coming up to the school. Only another 20 minutes to walk from here.

No tube, no train, no tram. Only buses or walking. No pavements on the bits through the downs, no street lighting either, if I remember rightly.

Now repeat that at 4pm in December when it's pissing down and pitch black.

I agree although the 2nd type of school though doesn’t necessarily do well in ofsted though and that’s what the majority of people look at.

Yes, I don't think OP engaged her brain before proclaiming "Scrap school catchments now" 🙄

Wow! Middle class elbowing. Chip on your shoulder much?

Agreed. There is common some sort of a trend of learnt helplessness that people use as an excuse as to why they can’t get things done. And because the UK is very generous with hand outs which is amazing in times of need but some people see it as a lifestyle and it diminishes their intrinsic drive to better themselves. I speak of this as someone who grew up abroad and can see the differences so clearly after I moved here. Of course not everyone is the same.

@VaccineSticker "And because the UK is very generous with hand outs which is amazing in times of need but some people see it as a lifestyle and it diminishes their intrinsic drive to better themselves."

There may be a tiny minority like this-but in general, this is bollocks.

@NeverDropYourMooncup
Notice the OPs name - Momentum. This is a political fishing expedition. Obviously a city dweller with no idea of how others live.

It would produce traffic chaos. Certainly boost private schools! There’s a lot of well off people who use state because the nearest school is good. Just watch them bail out if DC forced into a ballot and second DC gets put into another school. This is chaotic and unbelievably expensive as transport would have to be provided - unsafe walking routes and no public transport to the schools,

The best solution is to improve the schools.

And you think that those parents won’t find other ways to give their children the best opportunities? Sports clubs, music lessons, tutoring, holiday camps etc…

People will always do the best for their children and social connections will be reinforced if educational ones are eroded. People like “people like us”. Birds of a feather flock together etc.

Even in communist regimes all citizens are not equal. There is still an ‘elite’ class of technocrats and officials who are more equal than the rest.

@StormingNorman "And you think that those parents won’t find other ways to give their children the best opportunities? Sports clubs, music lessons, tutoring, holiday camps etc… "

Of course they will. But at least schools should do their best to counter disadvantage, not entrench it.

Maybe UK just doesn't work for you? And North Korea with (mostly) eradicated economic advantage would be a better choice? What a shame USSR collapsed, you'd love it there, no idea why its citizens were less keen after 70 years. Even communist China doesn't seem to be pushing economic equality hard enough to your taste.

You know what everyone should be angry about?

Be angry that any children have to go to shit schools.

Be angry that shit schools exist.

@MinervaMcGonagallsCat In case you missed it- this thread is about ways to improve the situation...,

apparently not - we are most angry that some of our kids, especially MC, still manage to get good education, so let's scrap grammars, PS, catchments etc and hope that everyone gets the same education, no matter how shit it is.

Shit parents make school shit. Outstanding teachers and leadership can make it marginally less shit, but it won't match school with educated and engaged parents. If you mix both, everyone will be dragged down, not up. But who cares if everything's shit if everyone's equal?

The poorest estates in my town back right onto a good school.
How would you envisage these kids would get to the "outstanding" school 5 miles away?

@nearlylovemyusername " But who cares if everything's shit if everyone's equal?"

Absolutely nobody is saying anything of the sort. Except people who want to cling on to their privilege and devil take the hindmost.

I think the thing that would most towards improving schools would be change the attitude of this county so both parents and pupils value education. So that pupils who want to work are respected rather than ridiculed, and low-grade misbehaviour in lessons would be so frowned on that it would happen much less.
More support for SEN, whether that is in specially supported schools, or mainstream, both should be available as they suit different children.

But also stop pushing every child down the academic route. Have more available for the children who are not going to enjoy/be good at the academics, things that they can try out and find their talent.
My dc's school has a very small group who in year 10 do 2 days a week studying practical (useful) subjects like car maintenance at a local college. They try a number then can choose to specialise. It doesn't lead to huge number of qualifications, but it leads to their confidence being built up as they find that they are good at other things, and it often leads to employment in an area they are talented at. It's a great scheme but it's very poorly funded.

It’s true though. The hypocrisy is people only now concerned about fairness when something adversely affects them. They were quite happy for there to be a two tier education system whilst they can afford it. They don’t care about fairness for 93% of children in state schools where cuts have severely limited the sort of provision these schools can offer.

But as soon as they realise that there are people who won’t be affected by VAT on fees because they are rich enough, it’s not fair, wahhhh.

But within the vast vast majority of catchments there are big houses, medium houses, small houses and posh and scruffy ones.
Are you a Londoner OP? Perhaps you are thinking of one or two particular schools. Majority of state schools aren’t like that, and those private school parents moaning about VAT and threatening to move into posh houses in catchments to push out regular parents, are talking nonsense. In most catchments there are a wide variety of housing types so their doomsday scenarios are laughable.
Most schools have mixed catchment areas. Most schools aren’t in London.

Definitely scrap grammars too.
At least the universities take into account the elevation in grades that pupils get by attending private and grammar schools.
You can’t possibly compare an A grade from a private/grammar school pupil equally with an A grade from a state school.

It is impossible to eradicate advantage unless you take all kids into care from birth and even then some will have an advantage due to mothers taking prenatal vitamins, not smoking or drinking, or being blessed with good genetics.

Parents want choice. Take that away and they will find a way. Sports coaching, music lessons, tutoring etc.

You said in a previous post that poor parents wouldn't be able to get their teens to do free online classes after school.

My DD has at least one class after school every day of the week plus weekends. Half I pay for, half are free through school. I don't care if she would rather lounge about scrolling on her phone, my job as her parent is to give her the best start in life, so she attends all of them, there is no option.

Should I be banned from doing that because other parents don't parent?