Organ scholarship for Oxbridge

[redcat9]

Is it worthwhile to learn organ in order to increase your chance of getting into Oxbridge? I just learned that organ players can apply to both Oxford and Cambridge. Is it worth it? My DD has just achieved her piano diploma with distinction. She is open to the idea of learning a new instrument. Anyone tried this approach before? Thanks.

Has your daughter any idea of the duties that might be attached to a scholarship?

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/finance/music-awards/organ-scholarships

https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/choral-and-organ-awards/organ-awards

How much has she been involved with or leading the musical life at her school - beyond her own playing? Obviously it can be a magnificent experience - but being an organ scholar would involve an awful lot more than simply ‘getting in’ to Cambridge or Oxford.

I think it would be more worthwhile to understand that there is far more to life than Oxbridge. It’s romanticised and revered and it’s not really justified in today’s society. We have many other world class universities.

(I have no chip on my shoulder - I went)

I think you'd have to really love organ music to want to be an organ scholar. It's an amazing instrument and if she likes that type of music the community surrounding choral music in Cambridge is lovely but it's a massive commitment to be an organ scholar.

Hi OP - I am an organist and pianist, and have knowledge of the most recent round of organist trials for Cambridge.

In a nutshell - it was incredibly competitive with an astonishingly high standard of candidates.

You will probably know that the instruments are very different. You need to play a third line of music with your feet on the pedals. Learn to use stops and make pieces come alive through registration. The touch is very different - because you cannot change dynamic by pressing harder on the key, articulation is even more important. And you must be able to show that you can improvise to a high standard, and be able to conduct and lead choirs more than competently through hymns, complex anthems and psalms.

How old is your DC? That will make all the difference (the longer they have to learn the better) as will the choice of college to an extent - although the competition this year was so tight that every college had their pick of amazing players.

DS2 (reading music) got an organ scholarship at Oxford. He'd been a church organist from the age of 13. Oxford and Cambridge struggle to fill the organ scholarship roles. Interestingly the chapel politics were so unpleasant that he gave up his scholarship at the end of year one and now plays the services in an Oxford church in term time (for much more money than the scholarship is worth).
Several of his peers did what your daughter is suggesting. They did generally struggle a bit without the previous experience of playing for regular church services.

Are you sure it actually makes any difference to the chances of getting in? Certainly for choral scholars you need to get an academic offer independent of the choral award and then make the grades. Last year I’m aware of a number who didn’t make the place come results day.

Also some (most?) colleges insist you read music (which your dd may wish to).

I know one organ scholar who was very miserable- because of all the extras expected and the college made it very hard for them to drop the organ and remain in the college.

But equally I know of two people who have careers in choral conducting who started as organ scholars and seemed to love their experiences.

Oxford and Cambridge are both changing their application process for organ scholarships. Candidates can apply to audition for both places for the organ scholarship up to the time before the UCAS applications close. However, the academic part of the applications must then continue through UCAS and candidates at this point can only choose one organisation to apply for.
They have essentially closed the loophole.

@redcat9

Would she also wish to consider the Royal Academy of Music, OP?

That might be somewhere she will enjoy too.

https://www.ram.ac.uk

Are you sure it actually makes any difference to the chances of getting in?

I suspect DS2 would have got in anyway (and Music at Oxford is not exactly the most competitive course for entry at Oxford), but there is no doubt in my mind that it 'oiled the wheels' of the process.
WRT Oxford some colleges require organ scholars to study music, some don't. The information is readily available on the OU admissions website.

Remember you have a lot of duties, quite frankly work to undertake though varies by college. My friend was an organ scholar 10 years ago now and she had to play for evensong 5 times a week, sung Eucharist Sunday mornings and various special occasions as well as organ recitals 3 times a term open to the public etc. she had been playing since age 8 in church and was incredibly gifted at the organ

I hope we’re not all sounding too negative!

I number both organists and organ composers (as well as choral singers) amongst my acquaintances, and they’re all blissfully and wholeheartedly immersed in that world and wouldn’t consider the hours they put in to be a hardship. But I’ll be honest, they all began as choristers in childhood, so the punishing timetable of committed music making is a way of life to them. I imagine it’s much harder if you don’t have that background.

Good point about possibly applying to conservatoires as well - though it’s not clear whether music is a primary or subsidiary focus for the OP’s daughter. Obviously the competition there is also ferocious, with a huge cohort of international students - but for the UK contingent it’s common to have a first degree in Music (not exclusively but often Oxbridge) before proceeding to a conservatoire for postgrad study and more intense professional exposure. (At least, among the people I know.)

But I’ll be honest, they all began as choristers in childhood, so the punishing timetable of committed music making is a way of life to them. I imagine it’s much harder if you don’t have that background.

Completely agree with this.

A former boss of mine was an Organ Scholar at one of the Oxford Colleges. He talked about how stressful he found it, that he got really nervous before each performance and I don't believe he played the organ again after he completed his music degree.
Encourage it if she's very committed and capable - but it's really not an easy option at - in fact, possibly one of the toughest

I guess the main question I would be asking is does your DD really want to attend Oxford or Cambridge? and is she old/aware enough to understand the implications?

For sure, these are prestigious universities and having a degree from one of them might be (but not necesarrily will be) helpful in later life. At the same time, students also have to work much harder than at most other universities and with added organ-playing responsibilities, this would presumably be even more intense.

Finally, organ scholars have something of a reputation in certain circles for being not all that bright. Not quite the same as for rowing or rugby scholars, but it does exist, or at least it did when I was doing research in Oxford in the early 2010s. Perhaps things have changed now.

How old is she?

As an organist, with a pianist DH, it's a very different instrument. I always find it funny that organists never think they can play piano to a good standard, but pianists always think they'll be fine playing an organ. Yes, they both use keyboards, but even the keyboards operate differently, which changes how you play them.

Add in the differences in musical styles, musicality, and the foot pedals, expression pedal, stop control... And she'll be competing against people who have a diploma in organ, can she get to that standard in time?

And that's before the rest of the responsibilities. In my college (a small one), the organ scholar also managed the choir and the music for concerts and services. Does your daughter have enough experience to coach a choir in choral pieces? That's why most organ scholars have a chorister background, as well as knowing the lifestyle, they have the necessary experience with choral music.

And to add to a pp point, about them "not being as bright". I don't think this is true at all. But they have significantly less time to focus on their studies (due to recitals, choir practice, meetings etc) than other students. That has to have an impact.

It's not a role I wanted at the time, and still wouldn't tbh. But my instrument is purely a hobby

I think the days of getting into Oxbridge if you can play the organ and write your name in crayon have long gone @TheWhalrus.
😆

My friend was organ scholar at an Oxford college - he’d previously had a choral scholarship for his boarding school, had been playing organ for years for church services, was studying music, and planning a career in that kind of music.

It took up about 15-20 hours a week in term time. Financially he’d have been much better off getting minimum wage in McDonald’s. And notably our college didn’t allow anybody to have a paid job in term time as the academic requirements were so high, but had no problem making him do 15-20 hours a week in chapel, which often meant he was struggling to get his work done. He definitely could not have done any other clubs/societies/student politics etc at the same time, which are a major part of life in Oxford.

Its not something to go into lightly.

I think there are easier ways to improve your chances of getting into Oxbridge.

If she wants to take up the organ (and has access to one for practice), then go for it, but unless she's got quite a while to go, I wouldn't count on an organ scholarship.

(I'm a pianist-turned-organist, and I'm a long way off organ scholar material, although I'm competent enough for our local church.)

Aside from university studies, if she’s looking for different angles for her piano playing, perhaps study to be an accompanist? It’s a fantastic and very difficult skill and she is clearly already an accomplished player. Good accompanists are always in high demand. Could be done as postgrad after a degree during which she could get lots of accompaniment experience. Being an organist is something of a lifestyle choice (and a fantastic one if that’s what you like).

I teach an aspiring organ scholar in my A level Music class. She is the organ scholar at the parish church and plays regularly for services including weddings and funerals. She sings in the choir and has gone through the RSCM medals. I sat in on an online audition she did for a prestigious choral opportunity (safeguarding as it was in school time and she had to use my laptop) and it was fascinating, if quite brutal. She is taking her ARCO imminently - already grade 8 on both organ and piano with distinction.

I took her out with me & my young choir as accompanist and she was brilliant, happily sight-reading accompaniments and playing on unfamiliar old organs. My former Director of Music did this for 20 years for me - she is just 17. I don't know how successful she might be, but I think organ scholars should be immersed in church music and able to tackle reading and improvising.

@redcat9

Which subject is she hoping to study at University, OP?

When will she be applying?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5104480-you-dont-have-to-quote-the-whole-original-post?reply=136655268

We don't know what she will be studying yet. She is in Y9.

It's hard work and you're expected to take an active part in the religious life of the college (as well as leading choir practices, providing accompaniment to anyone who needs it for anything, timetabling and other miscellaneous jobs which "the organ scholar has always done")

@redcat9!

If only you had offered that information sooner people might not have been so gloomy!

So she has plenty of time to begin and to build up some organist experience? Excellent.

Is she already attending any junior conservatoire teaching? (I’m a bit vague about the minimum age, though friends of mine teach at one.)