You can't change the rules during a game

[GodAtum]

A lot of talk about VAT on private school fees. My view is that it's unfair to change the rules while a child in in school.

Imagine if you where taking a flight and during the flight the pilot can on the speaker saying the price has increased and you need to pay 20% more before we land otherwise you'll won't be able to enter the country.

This VAT change should only be done to new school entrants, not existing children.

But Labour now have a mandate to change the law. They won the election. Parliament can change the law. The law about no VAT being on education was not some permanent thing written on a stone by Moses. It was made by politicians and can be changed by them in our democratic system.

Ah but this will be the UKs first divergence from EU law. Completely separately, we are a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights (which has nothing to do with the EU whatsoever - don’t be fooled by the name) which contains other protections around education and discrimination.

The introduction of VAT on school fees will breach Articles 1 and 14 of the European Court of Human Rights. Ironically, Keir Starmer is a supporter of the ECHR. The advice that Labour has had since the 1970s is that it will be unlawful to introduce VAT on school fees because this will breach Articles 1 and 14.

It won’t be the UK’s first divergence from EU law. There are many many divergences from EU law already on the statute book. You can do some research on this if you like.

You mean the European Convention on Human Rights, not the court. The view that there is some human right to private education without paying VAT is a fringe legal view. Of course, this is rightly a matter for our democracy and we decided this on Thursday. I voted for the Tories, but it is madness to pretend that Labour don’t have a clear mandate to make this change.

I don't think the pilot in your analogy has thought his strategy through. The plane is going to come down eventually, whether at an airport or not.

Private schools have never made parents commit to using that school until the end of the child’s education. You have always had the option of safely disembarking - unlike getting off a plane mid air.

The average family pays £6000 a year VAT. This is not some special tax targeted at one sector - we’re all paying it every day. If you want to buy expensive things then you pay more VAT.

Not sure on your analogy OP, but I agree with you. Unpopular opinion I know! I'm glad the last govt are out, but I'm not a fan of this particular policy (my kids aren't in private school). If this policy happens, I don't think it should apply to kids currently mid education in a school.

If VAT on school fees is a breach of the convention then how come Germany has never been challenged on this? They charge VAT to some private schools.

Greece likewise have VAT on private schools.

Ha! Dream on

Do you have a link to exactly what sort of schools?

VAT can be charged on crammers - ie where you are buying by the course, not for the whole school experience

For example, the German position is
"The services by private schools or other institutions for general education or vocational training that are directly related to school and educational purposes, if the institution is certified according to the German constitutional law or if the responsible German state authority certified the institution, are exempt."

The Greek proposals also appear to be dependent on place of supply and nature of course.

Come on, they’ve been talking about this for years!

The EU forced Greece to withdraw taxation of private schools. It was a failure of a policy.
Please can you link to the German schools?

The EU forced Greece to withdraw taxation of private schools. It was a failure of a policy.
Please can you link to the German schools?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/greece-labour-style-attack-private-schools-backfired/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0hrJ1MdXc2s91rX-5XRM5aOINzKDz2LQFR2t0s3ZZ4cJJE1q3Y2zSbx6c_aem_NOI7TXrQwVYIpYO8i_pz5w

I think Ampleforth have bigger issues to deal with than VAT on school fees. You are scraping the bottom of the barrel with that example!

It's the Torygraph. What do you really expect?

I am not a supporter of this policy but this is the most ridiculous analogy.
There are so many risks when you pick a school in either sector.
Will the leadership change and what will that mean?
Will the school become unpopular and therefore have less funding / fee revenue (either sector) and what will that mean for quality of provision?
What will government funding look like in a few years time (state specific and in the last 10 years a huge change which no one asked for )
You cannot join any school and expect anything to remain the same - by their very nature institutions are variable and dependent on factors beyond a parents' control.
There are some very 'poor me' parents on these threads who would be better off reducing the time spent moaning on social media and instead showing the resilience to go about earning the extra to keep their children in the schools that they have chosen and wish them to continue in. They were not on the state school threads of the last 10 years supporting those who have seen children with no ta's, SEN provision, less teacher time in state schools so to pretend to care about state schools now is so see through. And as for those falsely contacting LEA's for pretend places; shame on you.

Oh fgs they are reporting an actual event. It was the quickest report I could find but I have the full report saved somewhere. Just because something is written in the Telegraph doesn't mean it isn't true! Fundamentally Greece tried, and failed, to tax private education

Who said anyone is contacting LEAs unnecessarily? Private schools need 1 full term's notice of withdrawal so of course any parent planning to move woukd have to find out where the spaces are at. You can't just pull your child out and pray that there is a space! That would be highly irresponsible

The cureent PM was in a state grammar school when the government change the rule of game and the school decided to converted to a fee paying private school. Looks like the state council actually pay fee for the PM for his remaining 4+/years in the school.

I work in FE and have been highly critical of Tory cuts and the issues in the state sector. I have written to my previous MP etc. I am concerned with education at every stage because a well educated population benefits everyone and it is the main vehicle of social mobility. What I haven't seen from state parents in my area is a coordinated movement to lobby the previous government to raise funding and standards. Maybe such a group exists but I just haven't known about it.
So don't tar us all with the same brush just because we have chose indi.

What this policy has shown is that indi parents have been effective in raising the issue and bringing it into the public space. Maybe when you pay for something you are more motivated to protect it? There are as many sharp elbowed and wealthy parents in the state sector so maybe they should have done what we are now doing ie shouting from the rooftops and lobbying the government?

How about this source:
https://www.schoolmanagementplus.com/admissions-marketing/what-the-greeks-can-teach-us-about-vat-on-fees/

Or this one:
https://www.economist.com/europe/2015/10/30/greece-reconsiders-a-tax-on-private-education

@twistyizzy

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/sep/28/a-complete-crisis-2000-school-leaders-rally-against-cuts

@twistyizzy

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/education/hundreds-march-through-central-london-in-protest-against-unacceptable-cuts-to-school-funding-a3589026.html#:~:text=Hundreds%20of%20parents%2C%20children%20and,to%20a%20lack%20of%20money.

@twistyizzy

https://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/33769/1/15000-students-march-in-london-to-protest-education-cuts