A good school/ a bad school how do you tell?

[Iona40]

How do you tell if the school your. Children are at is a decent experience for them? Particular keen to hear from teachers. Context is that my child says they do not like school but very vague about why… also I’m keen they get attention at school and don’t know what is normal amount of time to reasonably expect from staff.

Wondered what questions would you ask to find out more or what observations would you make to read between the lines?

Primary or secondary? How old is your child? Lots of children don't particularly like school. It may not be that the school isn't any good. Hard to say without reasons why they don't like it!

Wondered what questions would you ask to find out more or what observations would you make to read between the lines?

Do you know any other parents of children at the school? Can you find out what they think of it?

Many parents judge whether or not the school is good solely based on whether their children enjoy it. I think there is a lot more to it than that. I ask my child questions to try and determine whether the level of learning is too easy/too hard. Also is there a good range of after school clubs? Are they bringing appropriate books home for their level of reading? That sort of thing...

I think one of the biggest indicators of how good a school is, is how happy the staff are. If staff are grumbling, discontent and disengaged then that spells trouble with the staff morale and you have to look at why that is. It’s almost always down to the SLT and the general ‘ethos’ of the school and there is no question that these things filter down to the pupils. If staff are happy, treated well, engaged with each other and with their students then I think you can overcome most other small niggles.

How you get an understanding of that is perhaps harder depending on where you are. If you’re in a community school where people know each other you tend to get an idea from the local community. It’s harder in a bigger/more anonymous school.

I have worked in a grammar school with very poor staff morale and chose not to send my own DC there. In comparison, the school my DC go to has high staff morale - teachers generally like the school, have good relationships with each other, there’s good sense of community in the school, they turn up at voluntary events like Carol services and spring concerts etc, and would say hello to you if you passed them in the street. That says a lot

I think one of the biggest indicators of how good a school is, is how happy the staff are. If staff are grumbling, discontent and disengaged then that spells trouble with the staff morale and you have to look at why that is. It’s almost always down to the SLT and the general ‘ethos’ of the school and there is no question that these things filter down to the pupils. If staff are happy, treated well, engaged with each other and with their students then I think you can overcome most other small niggles.

This x 1000

Currently primary but in transition to secondary…hard to get any concrete reasons!

How would you go about working out the slt ethos and staff morale kind of things as a parent I assume people would be reluctant to say anything so would there be observational things to watch out for in a bad or good school experience? For example school communications and school grounds?

I think the point about happy staff is spot on.

Do you know other parents with students at the secondary schools you're considering? I think you can pick up a lot from what they say.

A friend of mine often mentions how impressed she is with the headteacher being so happy to chat to parents. There are lots of in-school Q&A sessions and quizzes, and he seems to be present for everything, eg meeting a coach of students back from a school trip late at night. Obviously, that says more about the headteacher than the staff in general, but it does create a seriously good impression.

@Iona40 you said:

"I’m keen they get attention at school and don’t know what is normal amount of time to reasonably expect from staff."

Can you say a bit more about what you're looking for here? State secondary schools tend to be large, and most will have 30 students in each class, with subject teachers teaching many different classes during the week, perhaps 200+ students. I'm sure teachers try to be fair to all pupils but inevitably pupils who are struggling or are disruptive are likely to get more attention... Or are you talking about private secondary schools?

I think I’m probably reverting reluctantlyto compare state and private secondaries in terms of the attention they are able to give to a marginally bright child who probably will coast in the middle if not given enough attention. I can see signs of disengagement in learning now. Eg hates English grammar, feels there is a lot of general repetition. Ends up racing through exercises in class so can stop and read a book instead. On flip side loves the topics and has a kind caring teacher she is just in charge of 35 kids which seems an impossible task for anyone

Exactly the reason we chose private secondary. With classes of 15-18 the teachers have time to prepare stretch and challenge activities into each part of the lesson. Plus they don't have to follow the national curriculum so they can be more creative.
Teacher morale is a big one. Happy teachers are naturally better teachers, same as in any job.
Plus subject specialists for every subject does make a difference.
I'm not speaking for all private schools but just for DDs one.

In addition to the excellent points that @PopcornAndGummyBears has already made, it's worth pointing out that research has consistently shown, over a number of years, that the quality of the teachers is the single biggest in-school factor behind pupils' academic achievements.

A lot of people think that class size is the most important factor. It isn't, teaching quality is. Studies have shown that pupils do better in a large class with an excellent teacher than they do in a small class with a poor one.

Disclaimer: I am not a teacher, nor is anyone in my family. I am simply reporting what the educational research data shows.

This is a hard one if you live in an area where you aren’t as familiar with the schools. I’m in NI and to be honest the entire country has a small village mentality - even in the cities - people know each other and people talk - so if you are engaged enough you find things out, and even just get a sense of things.

One way to get an idea if by looking at staff turnover. If there is a central website which advertises teaching jobs keep an eye on it and see which schools come up a lot - that’s generally a red flag. It’s definitely easier once you’re in a school, or if you know people there though - people know whether staff are happy or not, pupils sense it and parents can figure it out when they meet them too.

No school is perfect - I love the school where my DC are and one of the main reasons for that is the sense of community and family in the school. Teachers are genuinely invested in the school - they care about their pupils and that makes them better teachers. That said - one of the VPs came in a few years ago and is NOT popular at all. People are genuinely worried what will happen when the principal retires in the next few years as no-one (staff, parents or pupils) would want her to get the top job - she would totally change the feel of the school. That ties in with what a PP said above about watching the headteacher/principal to see how they treat parents/how engaged they are/do they know their pupils. If they are leading well then they will lead by example and set the tone for the school.

Case in point - A local school (not the one my DC are at) got a new principal about 2 years ago and one of the things I have heard repeatedly about him is how involved he is - he knows every pupil in the school (about 1100), shows up at Saturday morning sports fixtures for all the teams, (not just for the A teams, but the B/C teams as well) and stands alongside parents in his casual clothes and cheers the teams on and happily chats to everyone - he meets every bus departing or returning from school trips - even if it’s 2am. Those things stand out and friends whose DC are in the school say he had made a huge difference in how the school feels. They feel he is completely approachable and is making the whole SLT more approachable. The previous guy wasn’t bad - but this new guy stands out as being more engaged and more genuine - like it’s not just a job for him.

Interestingly enough another local school has a principal who is very similar and while it’s a massive school with some significant behavioural issues, people are happy with the school because they trust the principal and know issues are dealt with and the principal is engaged and approachable

Thank you for the really thoughtful comments very helpful food for thought. I’m really struggling with the tension between class size and quality of teaching.

Oh wow OP 35 kids! I teach classes of 31, and find that enough. One thing I think makes a huge impact on teaching is class sizes. I've had occasions when I've had between 6-8 children off (usually due to sports tournaments etc) and honestly the difference is amazing. You can just devote so much more attention to the children. I can see why people go private just for class sizes alone (and I say that as a state school teacher!).

I do agree to an extent about the class size. The school my DC are in have 24 to a class - state Grammar school. (Private schools aren’t really a thing here in NI like they are in England/Scotland)

I feel we have good teachers put in really difficult circumstances :/ don’t want to go private but don’t want my kids to be bored unchallenged cause they’re middling and not especially gregarious ( ie feel they’ll coast)” in a big class) *sigh

At the end of the day surely we all do what is best for our own children?
It is dreadful that we are made to feel ashamed for doing so.

I absolutely want to do best for my own children but I recognise that all the children around me are part of a community and want to do the best for all of them, genuinely cause switching private feels like abandoning ship. Optimal education for me is a good local community school. If it was acceptable good enough class size and ability / support for teachers to thrive then the sense of community would mean I would not even be worrying about it. Sharing this chat makes me realise I’m Hanging on for labour to do *something no idea what in a short space of time though!

I am a lifelong Labour voter (not this time around because of the VAT policy) however I won't put my ideals above my child's education and welfare. We did state primary because the village school was amazing, private secondary because the local state option is dire, but will probably return to the state for 6th form.
The 1 size fits all model doesn't work for many children, for many reasons. We actually need more choice in the education system, not less.

The best gauge is definitely whether staff are happy. Realistically, though, you can only really figure this out by staff turnover.

When my dd wanted to share with one of her favorite teacher last year(y1) how she can multiple by 5, her teacher from said don't worry why do you know it, you shouldn't know it yet. All the last year HT told her she shouldn't try more than she already knows. Which is awful for me.
And the school did nothing with this situation, that's why the school is bad for me.
All my life I went to a state school and nobody told us this crazy idea. So I was expected the same from dd state school and her teacher, young and energetic. I was a full.