Grown up discussion about improving equality in education (hopefully)

[BeRoseBee]

I know everyone is tired of all the VAT on school fees threads - this isn’t one of them. Lots of threads on that if you want to discuss that.

Can we have a grown up conversation about how to improve equality in education for all? I’d like to keep it free from party politics if possible, genuine policy suggestions only please.

The Rest is Politics has a phrase I like - let’s disagree agreeably. Debate is good. Different opinions are good. Personal attacks or attacking a political party are not helpful.

I’ll start - personally I think buying educational privilege is rampant in the state sector. Wealthy parents buy houses at inflated prices in order to get their kids into the “best” state schools.

Wouldn’t equality be improved if we did away with this? If we could work out the logistics (mainly transport) why not have a random selection of state school within your local authority area? Buying a pricey house no longer guarantees your kids go to school with other wealthy kids, you’d get a genuine mix of kids from different backgrounds.

Anyone have any (constructive) opinions on this?

Isn't the important question here why do parents choose grammar or private?
The smaller privates often have limited d & t, IT and food tech. resources compared to secondary state schools. I don't think you can lump private schools as one humongous group, just as you can lump all secondaries and all grammars as one humongous group.
My dc go to a very good state secondary school, they have friends at grammar and private. What really stands out when they all get together and natter is behaviour. When talking to the parents it's behaviour which is the highest criteria for choosing a school. I'm sure my dc would both do better in an environment where they are not used as the 'disruptive kids moderator'. But they have far better resources, far friendlier uniform policy (no stupid blazers for a start) and far better pastoral care (compared to their friends).
However the secondary just down the road (different trust) is an absolute shambles, with constant fights breaking out, poorer academic outcomes, high level of vandalism etc etc etc. strangely enough my dc school is over subscribed the other one is under subscribed. Again the question here why are two state schools within a few miles of each other so drastically different?
I'm not convinced abolishing private schools or grammars is the answer. I think the answer lies in 1) leadership 2) the demographic 3) funding, funding needs to be much higher where the demographic is more disadvantaged.

The London challenge gave a fairly good indicator of what needs to be done.

Greater cooperation between schools, sharing good practice, a good LEA system that provides support, and the KEY?

More money to pay staff/hire more staff.

During the challenge and even after, schools were able to retain staff by offering pay raises, reduce timetables for people who were subject leads/exam class teachers, retain experienced staff by offering R and R points that were connected to them doing their roles and more.

Results in London went from being some of the worst in the country to being some of the best, especially when it comes to Pupil Premium students.

The schools where children start later have formal pre-school, we live in Sweden, compulsory schooling starts at six, the curriculum for four and five year olds at pre-school is very very similar to reception and year 1 in the UK.

I’d bring back Sure Start, one of the worst things this government did was slash it so much. Early intervention to make sure as many as possible are school ready and able to learn, plus more mental health support, catching problems early is so much better than waiting until children are completely off the rails. Also make sure there’s free breakfast and lunch for all, so no stigma around free school meals and no one trying to study while hungry. More technical skills and trade apprenticeships to support the non academic, plus supporting the academic. The country needs skilled trades just as much as doctors and engineers.

If politicians actually wanted to change things overnight, the answer is simple, all state secondary schools have to take up to 30 per cent pupil premium kids and they get priority in the admissions code over everyone else apart from “in care” provided they live within a 3 mile radius. It is then up to those parents to easily choose the better schools. Even grammars will have to lower entrance tests just for that cohort and make it work. If they wanted private schools to do it, they would have to fund some of it though.

Oh and bring back EMA, allowed kids who hadn't previously been able to study to do so.

Why should they get priority?

Because @MaryMaryVeryContrary unless the poorest kids get to choose to go to the best schools nothing will change. And the best schools can’t really even say no on funding grounds, because these kids come with extra funding. The whole point is that people have been buying a better education for their children who are already advantaged across state, grammar and private schools. So if anyone actually wants to make real changes rather than window dressing, that is the only way.

Should the key metric for a successful education system be equality?

I think aiming at equality tends not to improve education overall because the easiest way to achieve it is by holding back or artificially disadvantaging more advantaged children. So you abolish private schools or shift some middle class children into less good schools etc. and this might take the edge off those children’s attainment, which does make things look more equal but you haven’t improved education overall.

It’s much harder to improve outcomes for disadvantaged children in an absolute sense, whilst also allowing more advantaged children to achieve their potential. Partly because you can’t legislate to take away every advantage- you can’t ban parents from reading to their children or feeding them healthy meals or talking to them over dinner (and shouldn’t) and the more the state tries to damage their education the more parents will try to do to make up for the deficit.

And if you took an outstanding school in a middle class area and swapped out 100% of the children for children from poorer backgrounds its performance would probably decrease. Because poverty and the associated issues that go with it affects how a child develops from a very young age including affecting brain development. I’d imagine that the only effective way to address that is very early intervention ideally to prevent poverty occurring at all. Even by the time child is school age some of the damage is done.

"I think aiming at equality tends not to improve education overall because the easiest way to achieve it is by holding back or artificially disadvantaging more advantaged children. So you abolish private schools or shift some middle class children into less good schools etc. and this might take the edge off those children’s attainment, which does make things look more equal but you haven’t improved education overall."

When has this happened? This is a strawman of your own creation about equality.

We saw how disadvantaged children can have outcomes improved with the London challenge btw.

@BeRoseBee the problem is from the get go, humans will never be equal with education

for this example in an ideal world:

they all have the same types of school, same lessons, same books etc

then various students themselves, some will learn easily. some will learn ok some will struggle, then factor in some parents will use tutors to help improve the grades

and overall there you go, some good , some average, some need assistance, and results are an uneaven spread of abilities in various subjects

I agree and it does tend to be the most over stretched parents who don't value education who's kids end up in the schools everyone who does is trying to avoid. I am sure in many cases this attracts teachers determined to make a difference, however they do need to be given some form of carrot or at least paid to reflect the extra demands.

I stick to my idea that a means test alongside application to any selective school - grammar or faith etc - is the best way to add to the pot to enable better early years, as well as wrap around care provisions and offer a fair wage to lift the schools that end up as above.