Grown up discussion about improving equality in education (hopefully)

[BeRoseBee]

I know everyone is tired of all the VAT on school fees threads - this isn’t one of them. Lots of threads on that if you want to discuss that.

Can we have a grown up conversation about how to improve equality in education for all? I’d like to keep it free from party politics if possible, genuine policy suggestions only please.

The Rest is Politics has a phrase I like - let’s disagree agreeably. Debate is good. Different opinions are good. Personal attacks or attacking a political party are not helpful.

I’ll start - personally I think buying educational privilege is rampant in the state sector. Wealthy parents buy houses at inflated prices in order to get their kids into the “best” state schools.

Wouldn’t equality be improved if we did away with this? If we could work out the logistics (mainly transport) why not have a random selection of state school within your local authority area? Buying a pricey house no longer guarantees your kids go to school with other wealthy kids, you’d get a genuine mix of kids from different backgrounds.

Anyone have any (constructive) opinions on this?

@DorisDoesDoncaster

Can anyone please explain why children at some schools do really well, whereas children at other schools do not?

Some schools have better teachers than others.
Some schools have better management teams than others.
Some schools have different discipline procedures than others.
Some schools have a different demographic of pupils than others.
Some schools have different layouts of rooms/corridors than others.
Some schools have different class sizes than others.

No single reason really. Lots of different reasons into the melting pot.

If there were clear and obvious reasons, then there'd be clear and obvious solutions. The fact that decade after decade, we have the same conversations and schools are suffering the same problems, tends to suggest that there are fundamental flaws in the system, going back decades.

Perhaps we need to look at what other countries do?

“I don’t think money will solve the issue - only parental discipline will.”

@DorisDoesDoncaster - I think the trouble is that “discipline” in itself means totally different things to different people.

I brought my DC up to have discipline when it comes to academic work, pursuing hobbies, being polite etc, doing some chores, working hard but also having some fun.
But I also brought them up to question absolutely everything at the same time from democracy, to history, to being blindly told to just do something, to question what composers they are playing, etc etc.
So a military type school with pointless discipline would not have worked for them. They need a school where the discipline is about doing lots of work, making the most of your day etc but their ideas and questions need to be heard. Our supper table is political and ideological debates. Many school teachers do not like any children questioning the syllabus too much. I did tell them to stop questioning things in Year 10&11 and just learn how to answer GCSE questions the way they are meant to. They did understand that but found it very pointless.

OK, there are so many things.

1. SEN - diagnoses. But also recognise that many kids do not do well in mainstream, and autistic kids are often the ones who don't.
2. SEN provision needs to be nuanced. I know several very clever autistuc children who have no place. can't do mainstream. Can't do special school becuase it doesn't meet their needs academically. Can't do specialist board ing because boarding is generally crap if you are autistic.
3. behaviour. Schools have to be able to remove kids who kick off. My ds had a lad in his class who literally climbed on the desk and swung from the light fitting. That class went through so many teachers, they left and left teaching, becuase no-one could do anythign about behaviour.
4. funding. Cuts in funding have removed all the support services. All the TAs and the students services where kids could go if struggling. So now the child walks into class with nowhere to go. Put back the social support team in schools.
5. remove more kids from their parents (shocking thing to say) so many kids are returned time and again to parents who really don't care for them. How do those kids manage in school? Often they don't
6. Pour money into CAHMS and get early intervention. For whatever reaosn mental health is a huge issue, get every child seem within 4 weeks, and accessing counselling and treatment.

Notice how all of the above doesn't even start with teaching itself and the classroom. Without all of this there is no point in changing anything in the classroom.

I do think a lot of kids (but not all) who are disruptive at school are just not interested in the academics that are taught. I was bored to death but studied hard to escape the wrath of my parents.

Wouldn't it be great if they could opt out of mainstream education (but be required to pass maths & English) and then have the chance to learn all sorts of trades / vocations from the age of 11 in the same school.

Such as electrics, plumbing, carpentry, building, landscaping, restaurant level cooking, etc etc. These types of businesses where I live are crying out for youngsters to join them but the kids aren’t interested, maybe because they are not familiar with it. They could rotate for the first couple of years then specialise, but equally have the option to revert back to mainstream.

But admittedly that would require a great deal of funding.

If state education was consistently good enough then no one would be bitter about private education. The solution is to focus on improving state provision, not on trying to damage something that is doing well. OR, Thoth I think this is politically unacceptable. We recognise that MATs are private corporations in receipt of vast sums to educate our children and they cream off too much for executive pay. Education has already been privatised, even if we don’t see it. So, give parents the control and ability to hold them to account by giving them education vouchers and allowing them to be used at any school that charges no more than the value of the voucher. It might result in some new schools that shake things up a bit, allow choice and hold the MATs to account.

I think in Denmark they give tax breaks or vouchers to parents who take their kids out of state and opt for independent. I know a lady who said she moved there because of this (from the UK).

Anyhoo, I really wish that I had been given the opportunity to learn a trade (especially as a woman), instead of being told to go down the academic route. It’s quite soul destroying for creatives like me.

I have done well (relatively) but every day doing something academic/professional drains the life out of me. Would much rather be using my hands or creative side of my brain.

I guess I’m an engaged parent, I taught mine to read before school, I encourage her to choose books at the shop etc. I think if your son isn’t much interested in reading get him started by taking him to a bookshop and get him to pick something. Take an interest in what he’s learning, if he finds something particularly interesting find a documentary you can watch together on the subject. Make sure you know what he’s doing at school (reciew the curriculum at the beginning of the year) and if necessary you can buy workbooks that you can look at with him. Encourage extra curricular activities as well, whatever he likes, sports, music, drama, doesn’t matter really, it’s good for him.

Main thing is to take an interest in my view and where he needs help, step in and help him. There are kids who are total self starters out there, most kids need a bit of a nudge. Plus they are probably more likely to make an effort if they know you know they have some homework to do and will want to know their marks.

@Twintrouble1234 after getting back from school and making my own dinner (parents out at work, dad in B2C sales so evening work and mum in shift work - latch key kid) I did homework for 4 hours an evening with my ghetto blaster on.

They made it very clear that I would be on my own financially after education ended. Had to buy my own clothes, toiletries, phone, hair dressing, make up, insurance (travel, phone) before left school. Obviously they didn’t pay for any holidays or entertainment. They did pay for very occasional cheap and cheerful meals out.

Worked every wknd , 4 hours on a Friday evening and 8 hours on both a Saturday and Sunday. Full time school Monday to Friday.

Funding, funding and more funding!
Proper support for children with SEN.
Real wages for teachers.
A wider curriculum that provides more vocational choices.

Not every child is academically gifted. Those who are more talented with their hands should have more creative subjects to choose from. Being made to feel 'useless' because you're not great at physics leads to demoralised students who don't engage and get bored and disruptive.

It's highly illogical to hold private schools responsible for poor state schools - they are separate entities. The solution is money - money for sure start and health visitors and social services to improve early child health and reduce neglect and abuse. Money targeting schools in high needs areas. Money for special schools and PRUs so children get an education suitable for them - we absolutely should be getting violent and disruptive children out of mainstream classrooms and into settings specifically for them. Leave the good schools (private or state) to do what they are doing well, and focus on improving everywhere else.

Perhaps the non-mainstream parts of the education system could partner with local businesses to offer training then employment to the kids who are bored to disruption my academia?

As in, we will teach you about landscaping (etc), how to run a business, payroll, comply with all the taxes, save for your pension, how we set up on our own after working in other similar businesses or why it might be best for your own circumstances to be an employee instead of a business owner?

It boils my blood how kids can leave school feeling like a failure because they simply aren’t built to relish and excel at state or society defined standards of education.

I am in awe of the skilled trades people who have helped me so much with my own home. Those who fix the roads, motorways, bridges etc. Those who create amazing food when I go out to eat. The list goes on.

To address inequality in education we need more resources for state schools.

To truly address inequality in attainment we need to address poverty.

@DorisDoesDoncaster i'm in canada and we have a program like that. students can do the beginning of a trade ticket in years 11 and 12.
then there are certain universities that give credits towards bachelor level programs based on their trade hours. with added university level courses they graduate with a bachelors degree.
Bachelor of Technology: Thompson Rivers University (tru.ca)
mind you in canada it's really easy to pick up a bachelors degree at any age, the programs are there just you need to self fund.

@Phineyj I don't believe 2020 showed us kids that weren't motivated
It showed us inequality in children's homes: multiple children with not enough laptops/equipment to all be working
Not a suitable environment (table/ quiet room)
Parents who were working alongside supervising children - many frontline parents unable to supervise

It also highlighted a huge problem with the SEN set up
Many children are given a 1 to 1 worker instead of being taught to work independently. This support and access to learning was lost overnight.
None of the online learning systems were accessible to children with disabilities.
Teachers were not taught how to create accessible learning materials that can be used by all children - able bodied, blind, low vision, print disabilities.
With technology now it is possible to create a single document that all children can use independently. They need the tech and teachers need the knowledge to create inclusive content. I truly believe if learning materials are inclusive the costs would be significantly less than the cost of a 1 to 1 support worker. If the LMS is working properly It would also mean children who are off school for extended periods due to medical reasons could access their lessons remotely.

I also think there is a huge difference between attitudes to behavioural based disabilities which could be overcome with the right training.
At one school we were told my son was autistic but not enough to qualify for the school to get money so nothing they could do - he was bullied and constantly removed from lesson and even suspended.
We moved him to a school with an exceptional mainstream school with an award winning SEN lead who worked proactively across the school helping teachers and students with techniques and language.
Some examples: my son would shout out, 99% of the time he needed attention not a genuine learning question. He was given 3 post it notes. He could ask 3 questions, once the post it's were gone that was it. He actually really thought about when to use them, to not waste them and often ended a lesson with post it's left. It was a visual reminder to think and pause that cost pennies and allowed the teacher the ability to teach without disruption (other school he'd have been removed from lesson which in itself caused more disruption)
His class mates could also verbalise when he was saying or doing something inappropriate because they were given the language and tools to do this.
In the 2 years he was there the change was incredible - he got to college, no such support and he went right back to his old behaviours.

There will always be exceptions to these - but by making mainstream inclusive the costs would be much lower allowing for funding to go to those children who need the extra.

@WhyCantPeopleBeNice I don't disagree with you. I have a SEN child myself, a number of SEN students in my various classes and (if I say so myself) got quite good at teaching over Teams during the pandemic (I wasn't teaching students in the situations you describe though and they were mostly 16+).

I was responding to a previous poster who seemed to feel simply making good quality learning resources available was enough. As you and I both know, it's people that make the difference.

What I mean by "motivated" is "willing and able to teach themselves an academic subject without supervision by an adult".

In my experience only a tiny percentage of students fall into that category, and understandably so. Learning is hard!

Based on my own experience, i want equality in the way kids are treated in comparison to adults. Many state schools just don’t deal with bullying or physical assaults. In a workplace, it would not be acceptable for someone to beat me up. Yet I had to deal with it in primary school.

Priority for me is for a stricter process to be put in place to deal with bullies.

Dr naomi fischer on facebook/Instagram is worth a follow. She's a psychologist with a lot of insight into how the current school system is failing, particularly those with anxiety or neuro diversity.

Education starts at home with good parenting. Engaged parents who care about their childrens education. Who prioritise school and learning and reading from a young age. Parents who’s own parents also probably were engaged with their own kids education and prioritised school and learning. By default, these are the parents who worked hard themselves, got an education, got qualifications and probably therefore have a better paid career which allows them to have more choice over where they live and what schools their children attend.

I don't really have solutions because from my observations the barrier to education for most low achieving kids are their parents. That is parents not prioritising or emphasising the importance of education so they don't turn up to school, stay up late so are sleepy at school, are expected to care for younger siblings making them tired, don't have the tools for homework, have nowhere quiet to do homework/parents keep disturbing them, are taught a work ethic etc. I saw the team at DDs school trying to engage but being a 14-18 school they were hitting a brick wall, one conversation I overheard was "why bother with school, he's 14, didn't do me any harm leaving then, anyway he's not getting a clever job anyway" stuck with me.

Kids messing about in class was the secondary issue, and again parents just laughing when they got brought in, suspension doesn't work because they don't want to be in school, detentions they don't turn up for and many had to collect siblings for school.

Solve the parental attitude, you solve most the issues in schools basically, it's why you don't have these problems in communities that value education

I think this is interesting. It would require a huge shift in focus. The issue with 1:1s in primary though is very often they are helping children who will later be medicated for ADHD. Those children really, really cannot concentrate without lots of reminders and then need an adult who can go with them for movement breaks. Or children who get very physical.

To produce one learning material for all would require massive training for teachers - no bad thing. Tech in schools is appalling. Unfortunately things are going the other way. We've just been told the Cognition and Learning team for the country is being essentially disbanded. Children who previously got weekly support from a specialist teacher (children who at some point will likely go to special schools) will no longer get that. The plan is to upskill TAs. How can you go from specialist teachers to a TA for the most complex children who probably have conditions that will be encountered once or twice within a career?

@Pianochairs to expect TAs to do that I feel is wildly unfair on the students, teachers and TA.
It screams cost saving but the reality is a much bigger problem/expense and most importantly failing the students.

I certainly agree that primary school it would be expected to have a higher level of support for students, the aim is to teach students the skills to be able to work independently, I agree we can't just pop a laptop in front of someone and expect them to know all the ways it can work for them.

This would require a huge shift but sometimes we have to have a huge disruption - break something down and rebuild.

Many people have discussed the aspect of home and parents engagement and that also needs a huge shift. Whatever access students have in school, they'd need at home.
Parents need to be brought on that journey and that would probably be a bigger education than the teachers!
Some learning disabilities are genetic
There is a higher chance that the very parents that don't see the point in school were let down by the same failing model, they may have undiagnosed learning disabilities and if they only knew there was an alternative way to make learning meaningful they may engage more.

Though I'd also like to add that employers also need to have a better way of supporting parents, it's so often the parent working all the hours on minimum wage unable to take time off to engage with the school.
It takes a village after all!

I can tell you what I did ( DCs are 17 & 20) before GCSE they had supervised homework every night 30-40 minutes if they have no homework then fine, they can read- before being allowed on screens, this also meant sometimes doing them an early dinner between 5 & 6. Insisting on at least one sporting extra- ciricular throughout secondary. Phones downstairs over night. Attendance at parents evening/ school performances/ football and rugby matches. Inssting on having friends' parents' contacts and using them !

I'm a supportive parent and kids are at a grammar school on track to do well but we don't do homework everynight. We actively chose a school that didn't require the daily self quizzing one of the schools required.

It really does look different for each family. I have been there to sit and go through maths revision question by question and being present after school has helped so much. It's so tricky when looking at returning to ft work weighing this "presence" up.

I think the work load to be an engaged parent has doubled. Because we have to keep them safe and engaged in both the real world and the online world. A lot of educated parents fail in the latter too- you can’t just get them to hand in screens, you need to actively know what they are up to on there at all ages. I have friends whose children have had social media blunders in their 20s which have cost them!

Couple that with the expectation that both parents have to work full time so that the economy keeps going, clearly funding needs to increase to make up for that. Children and young people need mentoring and attention to grow into functioning adults who make good decisions. If the state expects every to work more funding is required.