Labour confused and arguing among themselves over VAT on school fees

[Another76543]

This policy is getting more ridiculous by the day.

We have the shadow Attorney General who doesn’t understand the basic concept that the VAT position and charitable status are entirely separate issues. She also doesn’t understand that it’s parents and not schools who will pay the charge.

“the question is, is it appropriate in these circumstances for schools, such as in Eton or Winchester or whatever, to be seen as a charity and that, therefore, they should not be paying VAT on the huge fees”

This statement is factually incorrect on two things.

She also seems to think that any money raised will be spent on breakfast for children. The potential money has already been allocated to new teachers. They seem to think they can spend the same money twice.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-labour-institute-for-fiscal-studies-education-secretary-winchester-b2559439.html

The Party are also now fighting among themselves over this proposal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-bridget-phillipson-labour-david-lynch-london-b2559684.html#

“sign of divisions within Sir Keir Starmer’s party over the policy”

God what a sanctimonious, judgmental load of rubbish.

"you should have"....planned ahead for a government making us the only country in the world to tax education. Therefore it's fair game? No, it's still just a stupid, damaging and ill-considered policy, with minimal benefit, whose justification is "it harms an activity I don't like, so good".

Just a small variation on what's also "been covered multiple times on here" and still doesn't get through: if you can afford a car, doesn't mean you can afford a Ferrari.

Misterchips the poster was whining that the policy would be as damaging as corporal punishment on their kid.

If it's been "covered loads of time" why don't they stop coming up with the woah is me type of arguments and just accept it's going to happen.

I have had enough of all of this now, You are either going to pay the vat or join the state system with the rest of our kids and the general great unwashed.

That's it.

“I went to private school and have voted Labour all my life. The youth you speak about might be brighter than you give them credit for and not just be about the policies that benefit them in the moment.”

I think this youth we are talking about are bright enough to figure out that they are the bull in the torero’s game with their red cloth and can perfectly decide for themselves. They have understood this is a fox hunting policy and they are the victims. It’s probably also why so many people are outraged by it, including some state school parents!

But so many voters we know don't care and plenty think it's a good policy.

Sorry it's a loosing battle for you.

Unfortunately everone will be "loosing" (!) from this policy.

I am not personally affected, but disagree with taxing education in principle and victimising children and their families.

I completely agree- it’s a very “loose”
policy. Nice Freudian slip there @beouf - are you pro Brexit as well then?

I’m more interested in the principles here:
-taxing education; seeing it as a sin rather than a public good
-dictating how everyone should spend their money and who they should associate with
-spinning things and throwing up a bit s flannel to go after groups they don’t like

I worry this is going to be divisive, negative few years. Looks more like settling scores than trying to move forward positively.

It's evident that the policy polls well. It's also evident that most of those who support it do so only weakly, and also that few people understand it.

There's barely a person who has come on here defending the policy who has the faintest idea what effect it will have, or has taken the time to understand it fully, or who is even interested in the effects. It always boils down to a state of sheer relaxation (or pleasure) about the harms, and never any reasonable appreciation of costs and benefits.

Interesting to see the info that the numbers of private schools and private school pupils have both risen, despite all the talk about this policy already affecting demand.

A lot of the noise about the policy is coming from the Independent Schools Council themselves, who are of course totally opposed.

"Interestingly I asked my 10 year old what their opinion was. Response: this is a stupid policy because most people don’t care about it but those who are affected directly will now vote against that particular party based on it. Straight out of the mouths of the babes…"

and in other things that never happened.

Yes mock election happening here. Very competitive.

Greens seem to be popular.

Asking a 10 year old? Who has no life experience??
Just bonkers.
Read the tea leaves instead

Is this referring to the recent Guardian article? The one citing data from January 2024 as if it were a relevant effect of anything?

We are a society where inverted snobbery is seen as a good thing - it does make me wonder if my kids will be treated badly if I send them to state school because we have a bit of money.
@Grace1980xxx

I think this will happen judging by the some of comments deriding private school students. If children hear their parents saying how ghastly rich poshos are then they’ll take it on board.

Is that really not relevant, or are you declaring it to not be relevant because it doesn't suit your personal narrative?

I really think the only way we will know if this policy will lead to major changes in parental behaviour is if it becomes reality, until that happens we are just stuck between the ISC (vociferously opposed out of self-interest) and those who proposed the policy (obviously in favour).

🤣

Yes, fair enough. Typically, though, when you want to declare an effect (or no effect) of a policy announcement, you would use post-policy announcement data....

I think January 2024 is post-policy announcement, as this has been known about for some time now (I was talking about it to friends who work in private schools well over a year ago).

I have said this before in this thread but it has got so long you probably missed it but I live in an area where 1/3 of kids from the local state primary go to private schools. The kids stay friends. They don’t judge. The state kids would love to go to the private schools for all the clubs and facilities and camps etc but they still care about their friends and don’t get upset with them in any way. They get along. Your kids will be fine in a state school just as a poorer child on a scholarship would be fine at a private school.

The kids stay friends. They don’t judge

@Mepop my daughter went to a private school in a town which also has a comprehensive school.
At the prep school she went to some children went on to the private school and some to the comprehensive. C
Dd was walking in the high street and she saw a friend from prep school who was now at the comprehensive and greeted her warmly.
‘The ‘friend’ walked past as if my daughter didn’t exist - and yes she heard as she turned when she heard her name called, but there was obviously a rule at the comprehensive that no one was to talk to the private school children.

I’m sorry that’s awful. Hopefully your daughter’s friend is the exception. Kids that I know of here don’t do that. My Y11 went to an end of GCSEs party last night with a mix of private and state school friends that have kept in touch since primary school. They all get on really well.

Mepop that’s good to hear.

The number of pupils in state schools has also increased over the same period, so any meaningful comparison would need to highlight if the overall ratio of state/private has changed. Also, it doesn't indicate how many of the extra private school pupils have come from overseas.

@Beouf

If you are posting this because your kids are having to move it's been covered multiple times on here that you should have expected this rise, created a financial buffer so you don't have to remove your kids and put them through the trauma you describe in your post.

This “you should have expected a rise” is getting tiresome. Families would expect normal inflation rises but not a new tax that breaches EU law (and Labour pledged to keep in place all current EU regulations). On that basis then, if for any reason interest rates go up over the next few years, do you agree that anyone who thinks private school parents should have budgeted are not allowed to complain that they can’t afford their mortgage payments? House ownership is a luxury that many people can’t afford and they should have anticipated that interest rates could go up. That is no different to your argument here but when we had what I would consider a small rate rise in 2022 in comparison to historic rates (I’m from the 15% generation and rates for the first ten years of my mortgage never dropped below 5%), there was uproar and requests for government support as a result.

For the record, in case you’ve not noted it from earlier comments, I’m not a private school parent, in no way impacted by its implementation and am totally against this policy. Even Labour supporters I know aren’t in agreement.

Actually the ISC isn't making much noise to be honest. It is parents who are currently mobilising and making the most noise.
The rise in private pupils has no context around the % of these being overseas students rather than UK students.

Is this an absolute rise in the numbers due to population growth, or a rise in the percentage of the student population being privately educated?