Labour confused and arguing among themselves over VAT on school fees

[Another76543]

This policy is getting more ridiculous by the day.

We have the shadow Attorney General who doesn’t understand the basic concept that the VAT position and charitable status are entirely separate issues. She also doesn’t understand that it’s parents and not schools who will pay the charge.

“the question is, is it appropriate in these circumstances for schools, such as in Eton or Winchester or whatever, to be seen as a charity and that, therefore, they should not be paying VAT on the huge fees”

This statement is factually incorrect on two things.

She also seems to think that any money raised will be spent on breakfast for children. The potential money has already been allocated to new teachers. They seem to think they can spend the same money twice.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-labour-institute-for-fiscal-studies-education-secretary-winchester-b2559439.html

The Party are also now fighting among themselves over this proposal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-bridget-phillipson-labour-david-lynch-london-b2559684.html#

“sign of divisions within Sir Keir Starmer’s party over the policy”

@OhCrumbsWhereNow - do Kingsdale get extra funding for those gifted & talented in those streams or do the parents just pay for the coaching themselves?

No idea where they raise the money, but we get free 1-2-1 music lessons every week, access to masterclasses, huge range of orchestras, choirs, bands, ensembles etc

Obviously a lot of those who are very serious about their sport or music are also coaching outside school as well, but you get around £1k of provision a year from school for free.

Some of you really need to get a grip or at the very least some fresh air.

White Lodge is the 11-16 part of the Royal Ballet School. Full time boarding.

I agree that the kind of provision that D's school has is incredibly rare. But they are a state comprehensive providing it. Enough children take GCSE music to run 3 full classes in each year group. More bands and orchestras than there would be time to attend.

There is also no catchment. DD has a very long commute, but the offer there was head and shoulders above anything local to us.

That’s definitely true, but does that mean we shouldn’t educate them appropriately? My nephew is a professional dancer, but he’s employed by the national company of another country - so no difference

@OhCrumbsWhereNow - might be Arts Council funding?

It's not surprising or interesting that independent school is mainly used by higher-earners. But you exaggerate the extent to which that is true.

When you say "it's close to 0% in all but the top decile" you're just stating the obvious "it's close to 0% in all deciles" because 6.5% is close to zero. You're making a remark about the size of the population, not its distribution.

The more accurate version is: almost all full-fee families are in the top three deciles, skewed to the top decile but not dramatically so. Hence in 2nd and 3rd deciles, 2-3%, being 1/3 to 1/2 of the rate across the population.

This is an extremely important part of the debate. We keep being told "oh, but nobody else is privileged enough to make that choice". And that's wrong. The data proves that anyone in the top three deciles can make that choice, and it also indicates that at least some people in the next 2-3 deciles could potentially make that choice by increasing their income.

Then your DC has been very fortunate. Around here, no school within 15 miles offered A level music, the secondary school had 8 students doing GCSE. The pianos were removed from classrooms because the kids vandalised them. People living rurally don’t have transport options to do a commute to different schools.

The fact that your DC school had the money to pay that much per pupil towards those subjects just highlights the inequality of provision in the state sector. Not every LEA gets the same amount of funding per pupil so maybe Labour should be tackling that to deal with inequality rather than picking on parents who have no other option but to find a private school to support their child.

More a case that I spent a huge amount of time looking for schools and sitting DD for every scholarship going.

We live very rurally and DD does a 3 hour commute to get there. It was a choice we made because local schools had similar provision to what you outline and we couldn't afford private education.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow

More a case that I spent a huge amount of time looking for schools and sitting DD for every scholarship going.

Just out of interest, if it’s a state school why were scholarships needed to attend the school? I thought you said all the extra-curricular was all paid for?

If there is something parents of musicians are missing that is available for state schools, that could be worthwhile knowing.

They are termed scholarships because they come with provision that costs money (free lessons) but are aptitude places.

If you secure an aptitude place then catchment becomes irrelevant. As long as you can get there by the morning start time you can live wherever you like.

There are a lot of schools that run aptitude schemes in different subject areas. Not all provide the kind of 'freebies' that we get.

DD's school run them for Music and Sport for entry to the school and then have Maths and Art scholarships for those within the school. All come with specialist extra tuition and access to subject specific trips/masterclasses etc.

"I'm not grateful for tax contributions" Try to imagine how stuffed this country would be without people who pay for public services several times over. You can empathise all you like, what poor people really need (in an economy that's increasingly highly-taxed, and is I believe the most progressively-taxed in Europe) is lots of rich people.

I'm asking for critical thinking. I'm not asking for gratitude or pity. Leave them outside, along with the anger and envy.

Use your critical thinking to realise that hurting "the rich" by which you mean people in the top-third doesn't actually help "the poor" or anyone else.

@MrChips

Just reading back over the UCL data and it indicates that the participation rate even in the 80th percentile is below 0 though?

Am I reading that wrong?

They also did a follow up study which said that familial wealth, and grandparental help were the main factors influencing participation in private education in lower income deciles, not income.

There's also this: "If we focus on those outside the top income decile, a large majority – up to four out of five children – are not receiving grants or bursaries."

@Runor we absolutely should (I'd say we must) with whatever resources available, but this doesn't mean that it has to be at the cost of those parents who are doing this privately.
And we have to ensure that society celebrate these kids successes, not jump on them shouting "unfaaair" and try to level down

Regarding academic need, the thinking here is very much if you have a very academic child push them into extra curricular like violin/oboe/piano/cello, fencing, cricket, golf, chess etc vs in some other countries it is perfectly OK to encourage them to do 3 hours of Maths a day and get a tutor to do precisely that. It seems even the top private schools actually think like that. It is obviously a cultural thing.

"They now turn down Oxbridge and move to US, no matter PS or state school. This trend is now profound in top selective PS"

Not really, there are some applications to the States and it is becoming more attractive. Globality mobility of the most wealthy students isn't really a new thing and despite the fantastic achievement of those girls, funding is quite hard to come by, although when it does, and you meet the criteria it can be very generous ( think fees, accommodation/food). The majority do still apply to the UK even if they are applying to the US. The different requirements for application suit different students, some who have been very academically focused for a long part of their student career might not have a wide enough portfolio of extra curriculars for top US universities, but might tick all the boxes for the Big 6 UK ones, and vice versa.

NCS has a very specific US program and isn't really a good example of a trend.

@Grace1980xxx
The reality is, privilege comes in so many forms. I'm privileged that my children are healthy.

I agree, but on mn privilege only means being rich and/or posh.

@Barbadossunset

We've had huge debates on whether privilege even exists here, male, white, pretty, etc etc. Lots of JB Peterson fans here..

I think it's unlikely the participation rate is below 0% in any percentile.

If it's about family wealth to such a great extent - which I have my doubts about, but will park them, then

• if the current parents pay it on to a generation behind, it's irrelevant. It's still a contribution out of privately-earned after-tax income
• if they don't, (1) it's a permanent expenditure of wealth and private schools are a terrific instrument of downward financial mobility which surely all correct-thinking people want? (2) it's also the opposite of hoarding wealth, which surely all correct-thinking people hate? (3) it's not sustainable, because as you know wealth is a stock not a flow, so the sector's days are numbered, and the last thing any sane economist would recommend is to stick the knife in with a large, new, radical and contentious tax, which all correct-thinking people know.

Before you go off and tell me what I know, which is that it's unfair because the baby-boomer generation made a £ton on property and DB pensions while never paying their way for any of the services they now demand....all of those are colossal economic problems that should be dealt with in their respective markets, not in this one.

@Aladdinzane your response has no relevance to my post.

Yes, US is very hard to make happen and yes, this particular example is rare. This is not the point I'm making at all.

My point is that UK is becoming a very small minded country hating any success. As a result, the brightest ones, those who will most likely become very high earners and high contributors, don't see this country being attractive anymore. Your earlier point about culture, experiences etc - yes, absolutely, fab for tourists. Mainly limited to London. I'm sure foreigners will still be coming here and Chinese/Saudis/even Russians will still spend a lot on shopping and restaurants, but they won't pay taxes.

It's middle-high earners who pay, and they exceedingly looking abroad now.

I won't repeat full story, posted on another thread - only in my immediate cycle, people I personally knew, about 20 moved to EU permanently in the last couple of years taking their jobs with them. Immediate tax loss in over £1m pa. These jobs aren't replaced with locals.

It’s interesting, and wonderful, that some areas have those opportunities available and that the pupils have both the facilities and the support to pursue non-academic talent. However, this links back to how the school can afford to do this when other schools can’t do science experiments because they can’t afford the chemicals. I know of one school (state) that bought every child a tablet/IPAD when they joined in year 7. Some schools could only dream of being able to do that. Looking at funding levels by LEA could have a positive impact on education and improve outcomes as it varies considerably by LEA.

Nationwide I would imagine the kind of offerings that you mention are rare, certainly nothing in my area when my DC were school age. Therefore, if you have an extremely talented musician/dancer/sportsperson, accessing the high level tutoring or being in a more supportive environment through a private/boarding school becomes the only option if they want to pursue that career.

@MrChips

"I think it's unlikely the participation rate is below 0% in any percentile."

This is what their data shows though?

I'm happy to adjust my opinion by being shown otherwise.

How would you propose dealing with the problems then?

As Identified above, an even worse political reaction to any Income Tax, IHT, CGT, Council Tax, or changing social care contributions, is far worse than this one, which already has massive attention publicly.

The babyboom generation are very interesting, their size has made them the absolute centre of political decision making for decades and they've benefitted massively from this.

"My point is that UK is becoming a very small minded country hating any success."

It really isn't, at all. This is just a trope, its also trotted out when tax raises of any kind are proposed.

Many other successful OECD countries have higher top rates of tax, do they hate success too?

"As a result, the brightest ones, those who will most likely become very high earners and high contributors, don't see this country being attractive anymore."

Those girls got a great opportunity, most students who study abroad return home after they have done so, as the UK's data on university students from abroad shows.

The point about those who threaten to move abroad due to changes in tax was accurate, they are less mobile than they think in many cases so economic opportunities at the same levels as they would like, and neither are the cultural opportunities.

There are many cities ( and towns) in the UK that offer lots of cultural opportunities btw.

This just shows what inequality there is within the state system. Our catchment school doesn’t even offer the opportunity to study GCSE or A level music.

“This just shows what inequality there is within the state system. Our catchment school doesn’t even offer the opportunity to study GCSE or A level music.”

Yes there is inequality in the state system, but @OhCrumbsWhereNow point is that her DD is also making sacrifices to attend that particular school by travelling a long commute. And if you have a musical child you will know that missing 3 days out of your daily schedule on commuting is hardly ideal from a practice point of view.

I am looking at that particular school too for my Year 5 since our local grammars have become crazy competitive due to this VAT policy. It is never “fair” - for example, if my Year 5 were a boy then there would be more options within the state grammar system. For example, Wilson’s school the top grammar last year, now has a music stream for boys and a new music block.

The 2 darlings of Labour politicians Dame Alice Owen and Latymer do as well, I believe, now have music streams, but do check yourselves if you want to.

Funding per child in my Borough is poor. G&T funding is probably separate in any event and the clever schools do know how to tap into the extras. That is why some of the Academies are really quite successful.