'Gifted and talented'...

[Sevendayhigher]

Hi everyone!

My baby is six months old and nowhere near school age (although I'm told the time flies by...) but I was talking with a friend and we were wondering whether Gifted and Talented schemes still existed in schools and if they do, I'd love to know your thoughts.

My school didn't participate in a scheme like this, but growing up some of my friends' schools did, so although I don't have first hand experience of it, I do have some quite strong opinions! Personally I think that sorting out children as 'gifted and talented' (and in turn, 'NOT gifted or talented') at such a young age is wrong, not only because it discourages children who might not yet have found their calling or may be slightly later bloomers, but also because it implies that the only way a person could be 'talented' is by being so in a subject taught at school, which isn't necessarily true.

I also think it's not particularly fair on the children who ARE put into the 'gifted and talented' category, because these are really big words to slap on a child and being told that you're exceptional from a young age can really spoil your school success. I know several people who were told consistently from a very young age that they were academically special and highly intelligent, which they were, but ended up being academically 'average' (notably so) by sixth form because they were pretty much over academic success by the time it actually mattered (GCSE and A Levels) - they'd already been told they were 'gifted', they'd already been given special attention and there honestly wasn't much to work for. I've been told by a few of them that they also knew they could do well enough in the exams without revising - which is fine, but a shame that they couldn't just be left alone to do their thing and not peak so early.

Personally I think an emphasis should be placed on hard work rather than natural 'talent', because in the real world that's what tends to be more lucrative than being told you're naturally good at something. I know the children in these groups get more support academically, which I'm not against, but I think just calling the scheme something OTHER than 'Gifted and Talented' could really benefit every child in the class, reglardless of where they're placed!

But what do you think? I'd actually be quite glad to be wrong about this, because it irritates me more than it should and I really don't know why haha! I don't like the idea of children being put into boxes like this without being given a fair chance to bloom.

Would love to hear your thoughts!

My DD was put into the gifted & talented group at year 1 for maths and english. They hated it and it's left them with Imposter Syndrome and actually made them feel less able. They were labelled as gifted because they could write their name, read basic words, count confidently to 1000 and count in 2's, 5's, 10's etc when they started YR but that was because I was a SAHP and we used to do stuff like count house numbers when out for a walk and they had those Disney/Panini sticker books so counting looked really easy for them. They wanted to be able to sign their drawings so I taught them to write their name etc and they'd follow the words when I read to them. They are not overly gifted but just very bright & enthusiastic and wanted to learn. Unfortunately, schools seem to see this as genius level attainment because compared to other kids in their class DD looked very advanced plus the extra G&T funding is a boon to the schools.

If I could go back then I would probably have said no to DD being labelled as G&T as they just felt so pressurised and couldn't keep up with the expectations placed on them. On the other hand friends of ours who have a DS of the same age did have a genuinely gifted child but the school couldn't actually help them on the G&T scheme as he was developing knowledge/skills at such a fast rate having outstripped the teaching staff's abilities by Y4. He's now at a good university (he turned down Oxford & Cambridge) enjoying the experience and will leave with a top degree having aced GCSE's + A-levels with A*'s.

Just out of curiosity @MothralovesGojira, could you clarify he turned down Oxford & Cambridge? As you can’t apply to both in the same year, do you mean he applied to one, was offered a place and declined it, then did the same with the other the next year?

Or do you mean he decided not to apply to either of them? A person can’t turn down a place unless they’ve applied and been offered one.

I feel schools should cater equally towards vocational and academic strengths. I strongly suspect my daughter would have fallen into the gifted category however she has consistently been a D student with a complete disengagement with schoolwork.

Now she is a teen we are exploring fast track vocational pathways because we’re both tired of tearing our hair out over assignments and assessments. If she could go back in time 50 years and start an apprenticeship somewhere she would thrive. There are many different ways to learn and so many pathways to success that it seems cruel to keep kids jumping through mindless hoops in what seems like a never ending childhood.

I have two dc (one gifted and one talented). I'd never label them as that, but schools are often keen to bestow labels, liberally. My 'gifted' child was assessed at 11 or 12 by an educational psychologist and is above 'genius' level IQ. This wasn't a surprise. He was always absolutely curious, self-educating, and keen to get to the bottom of knowledge. His first words (other than ma) were a complete sentence, which was unsurprisingly a question. We moved him from a school which had labelled him gifted to another at age 7 and never bothered with any labels. But, the school was small enough to respond to a lot of his pursuits and enquiries (not all!). He went on to one of the top senior schools and got top results in all GCSEs and A Levels. He's at the second top uni in the world and finding it fairly straightforward. He certainly has plenty of time and headspace for all his other interests, and there are many!

My second child is talented (not our label). She is now doing her GCSEs, was Head girl at prep, won scholarships to more than one senior school. Is at a top one now and is all over it. She's a natural musician, soprano and artist. Across the board, she represents all the top sports teams and is a natural leader. She wins major national and international art awards and this will most likely be her career path.

I don't think the labels help. I've just let them be themselves and tried to connect them with people that can challenge them and open avenues for exploration and fulfilment. Most of all, we don't put pressure on them, so they are self-driven. We just want them to be happy, which seems obvious. But, a child with extraordinary IQ or talent can often find it difficult to find friends, challenge and equivalent peers.

Gifted children can have different needs and difficulties though. That wouldn't be ignored if the difference was that that they are less conventionally able and it shouldn't be ignored here.

Also, think of the help and opportunity this could give a child who doesn't have the backup and support at home that I suspect yours will.

@Sevendayhigher The National schools Gifted and Talented scheme was scrapped over a decade ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Gifted_and_Talented_Programme

I think people confuse "gifted" with "academic success", but they are different things.

Really gifted kids just have brains that are wired differently. If you stick them in a standard class, they can do quite poorly, because they disengage.

Kids that are contentious and sufficiently bright do well in school. However, all the extension and opportunities in the world won't make them gifted.

Gifted and talented classes should be about meeting the needs of kids with different brains. Unfortunately, it always seems to end up being some sort of ranking thing.

@Sevendayhigher
No, he was actively pursued by both via the 6th form college who were VERY keen to get him in either as it's a big tick in their box and they're in local news every year trumpeting how many students have Oxbridge offers. His choice of 6th form was based on sport activities available and this 'pursuit' facilitated by the college put him off enormously I think. He did go and look at both but decided that they weren't for him and chose a good uni with good sports facilities in a lovely city. The 6th form college were furious apparently.
He's a lovely kid with lovely parents and is the most intelligent person that I know.

@LameBorzoi
I agree with you. My DD hated being labelled so early. It's a shame that the school were keen to facilitate G&T because of the money. None of the kids were 'super intelligent' in the G&T group and the school would have done my DC a better service had they have recognised that they had ADHD instead. My DD is though a fabulous artist but performs badly academically when under pressure and feels that a G&T label is as harmful as a 'dunce' one.

@LetItGoToRuin
I'm not surprised to hear that as I think it was unlikely to have 'found' much in the way of undiscovered genius. My DD is now over 20yrs old and still gets salty about the G&T scheme! I'm glad that the DoE redirected funds to helping disadvantaged kids to to uni as I knew quite a few of those.

The gifted and talented programme as others have said no longer exists in the U.K.

There's no funding for it and schools are not required to do anything any more.

I respectfully disagree with other posters about the usefulness of the designation, purely based on my experiences with Ds1 and Ds2. Not that these are definitive though, but they are illustrative. One worked, one didn’t!

DS2 was ambling along quite happily, not doing much in class, enjoying everything else but not excelling, and then based on academic potential testing got “lumped” with the G&T label. It certainly changed how teachers saw him, how he saw himself, and led to him actually doing some work and expectations increasing on him which has worked very well (for him).

In comparison at a prior school DS1 with a 150+ IQ but learning differences didn’t get designated G&T as the output work wasn’t high enough (dyslexia etc) and thus he wasn’t backed by the school and started disengaging. We had to leave the school in the end as he was so unhappy and unsupported in his SENs, and they had low expectations for him. At the new school they didn’t have a G&T scheme for younger years but “saw” him and responded by challenging and engaging him and working with his educational needs. He thrived there. Their scholarship stream kicked in later and he was in that, which was fantastic for him.

Mine coming to the end of their school careers never heard of this it’s not a thing. Of all the things to worry about with child rearing this is not one!

No, I don't think it helps much or is a predictor of future life success. My DS was 'gifted and talented', high IQ, successful at school yet as an adult hasn't found a job or career after university. I think this happens quite frequently.

The only useful thing he got out of it was the headmaster used to take the top 5% academically bright children for extra lessons.

It was a demotivator for my DD who's above average but not 'gifted and talented'. When visiting my DS's old school with a view to attend there, she was told "oh you're DS's sister, we remember him, he's so bright, used to win all the awards at maths every year". She didn't want to be compared to him (poorly she felt) so avoided that school!

This

My eldest child is v bright, straight As all through school, off to RG Uni but he isn’t as far as I would say “gifted”. Just very intelligent. Actual giftedness I think needs support as other special educational needs.

My DS (ASD) was on the ‘gifted and talented’ register. He is a savant genius. He’s 31 years old now and never had a job, and will never be able to work.

@Sevendayhigher this will tell you what you need to know: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9065/.

These days schools use the term "more able" or "most able" for tracking high academic attainers. It's just as important to measure progress for these students as a group as it is to measure progress of middle-attainers and lower-attainers, to make sure they are appropriately stretched and challenged.

Some schools have specific activities aimed at more able students, e.g. Oxbridge visits, but they will also have activities aimed at other groups. It is usual to have some activities that are open to all and other activities that are more targeted to children with certain characteristics, whether more academically able, less academically able or interested/able in something specific, like sport, music, dance, or acting.

Advanced children do have different needs. Being under challenged at school doesn’t teach children to learn so when they eventually do have to make an effort, they don’t know how. It also causes problems with anxiety feeling so out of step with your classmates.

Many students who are identified as gifted and talented are also ND.

our school doesn’t run a specific program for gifted students. When dd was young we spent a great deal of money enrolling her in programs outside of school where she would get to spend time with her peers. Children who spoke like her. children who didn’t treat her as strange. We would have loved it if the school ran a program to actually support these student’s needs.

now that she is in secondary school, there are enough students that the school is able to group them a bit better. Her school provides some
tracking and some selective courses. That is helping to tailor the work better and to give her some challenges. It’s far from perfect and I do often wish schools still had pull-out programs like when I was young.

I have always thought of the gifted and talented scheme as picking up the children at the other end of the SEND spectrum. My daughter was on this around year 4 to 6 and it meant that she had stretching activities such as uni science activity days. I see it as an acknowledgement that some need enrichment activities to make the most of their abilities.

Doesn't exist anymore.

However, I have a child with severe SEN who happens to also be talented to a very high level in a particular area. She got her place at secondary school via an aptitude entry process and it's been extremely important for her that she is seen as being good at something when she struggles with so much else.

It's also meant that school have been particularly good at being supportive with work that she does outside school and allowing time off etc for this.

Instead of enrolling in G&T how about encouraging something like taking up a musical instrument ?