What other education will have VAT added?

[BigCroc]

Will this VAT on private school fees be limited, or could it go on other stuff too? Thinking about tuition and swimming lessons.

40% of the 6% move to state

In Edinburgh over 25% of children are privately education. So 40% would mean 13% more children in state education. In other words, it would require 3 new secondary schools and twelve new primary schools.

It might well be, but that's not what Labour are saying. They're saying that it's to pay for improvements to the state system

If actually, they know that it will damage education for all children, but damage education for private school children even more than state-educated children (apart from extremely wealthy private school children, who won't be harmed) then they should be honest and say so.

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/applying-vat-to-independent-school-fees-could-cost-as-much-as-16-billion

Report states that if 10% of private school students move to state - there is absolutely no benefit to this policy at all (research has shown that 15% of parents have said they will move / not start their children in the private sector if VAT comes in). If 25% less students in private then this policy will cost the govt £1.6bn! This is in addition to the hidden cost to the children in terms of disrupting their education and also standards -

In the event there is even any benefit from applying VAT - training teachers doesn’t take one day whilst benefits (if any - since staff retention is a real issue) is only felt in the medium term but disrupting children’s education is immediate. State school class sizes and resources consumed per child will increase as a result which will increase the burden on the state schools especially those already stretched.

This is a lose lose situation for those in private and state sector, only benefiting the ultra rich who don’t need to compete with as many people for their private school places. I don’t disagree that the state sector needs improvement but it should not be at the expense of the private sector. There should be other ways to fund this improvement and govt can cut back expenses in other areas.

It’s creating even worsen inequality

10% leaving would be sufficient to drive many private schools to close. Other local private provision, if there is any, might benefit from movement of children. But many more than 10% would end up knocking on the door of the council, and possibly doing so in the middle of GCSEs and A levels. If a school became insolvent then it can not trade until the end of the year. I remember a local private school when I was a child closed over Easter - just before exams. It was a nightmare for all the children involved.

Yes a lot of non selective London private schools are already suffering from very small class sizes (good for the students but for the school it’s unsustainable) - one of the central London preps we thought of sending our DD to only has 9-10 students in the upper years.

Not sure how they survived this far but the previous owners did sell out to a large equity fund a couple of years back. It’s inevitable some schools would have closed regardless of VAT but this will be much accelerated resulting in job losses
and disruption to children.

The selective private schools will survive and become more elitist as the middle class get priced out.

the policy can easily be extended to apply to other education mediums - UK should be aiming for a more educated society, not the reverse.

I wouldn't class doctors, teachers, lawyers or engineers as "non-essential".

The state sector is poorly funded so agree the govt should find some other money to fund it. This policy not about levelling the playing field at all (in fact uk should be improving the education level for all sectors whether state or private). We shouldn’t be bringing the private sector down to boost the state sector, both sectors can exist together and improved to have a win win situation. People who only think about win/lose, or us vs them are missing the point. These funds to improve the state sector does not have to come from the education sector at all.

There is no legal obligation for people to stay in education past 18. it is an option individuals can exercise, and one that is not open to everyone for various reasons. We charge tuition with the understanding that these students will have enhanced earning potential over their careers and should therefore cover the cost of their own education. If we expect them to pay tuition, not sure why they couldn’t also pay VAT.

or we could recognise that education is usually an investment in our future workforce, regardless of whether provided by the state or funded by the individual, and keep vat off education altogether.

They should just charge all for education. Small amounts up to big amounts. Those moaning that it’s not fair they aren’t rich enough because of everyone else, will soon see what it means to pay for ‘education.’ Some believe that £50 tax is them paying for education. I say just make everyone pay and then you get what you can afford. Work harder in school- you then get to pay more for education :)

It will.what is the extra cost of adding a 31st kid to a class of 30? Nothing!

Oh right, so your plan is to reduce per capita spending for state schools by 3% (1 extra child in a class of 30).

And you think that won't have an affect?

All the sensible people know it won't improve anything in state schools whatsoever. All pipe dreams and fakery to get the envy brigade to vote for them. It would work out about $5 per head haha. Brilliant. The lower ability will still have lack of support and the higher ability will always be fine. Nobody will win. Unless feelings of jealousy will evaporate over night from it and those people will suddenly find their own children more intelligent and successful ? Ummm we all know that is untrue too

Just revisiting this thread now that the election is over. If anyone is worried about vat being passed to parents, maybe take comfort in data showing that private school fees have risen at over twice the rate of inflation over the last 25 years: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-charts-that-shows-how-private-school-fees-have-exploded-a7023056.html

I.e. private schools are probably doing a combination of raising standards and taking more profit. If they want to avoid passing on all the VAT to parents, they can just lower standards (schools were still better than state 25 years ago) and reduce their profits. They will still offer a better education than state schools for those that want to educate their kids privately, but the ~£2billion raised in VAT can benefit children who don’t have those advantages.

Why would parents take comfort from the fact that they have to pay even more on top of the large increases in fees over the last few years? Do you take comfort when your fuel bill goes up that it went up a lot last year too?

The vast majority are not profit making?

None of that 'extra' money is ever getting to state schools. As usual they will pretend it is...just by saying it, is it true? NOPE but you carry on believing it is true if it makes you feel any better. State schools are millions in debt- you can look that up or ask the local councils. They will just say 'we had to knock some of the debt off.' Nothing will change, it's a dire situation but at least you will feel better that more affluent parents will be asked to pay more.

And it’s a shame we would be advising the school to lower its standards. Surely we want state schools to up their standards not private ones to lower theirs

This. Education hasn’t been VAT exempt across the board. The families that use these tutoring companies are always poorer than the families that send their children to private school. Both families want the best for their children. But those who can afford the least to pay VAT are charged it, while those who can afford the most to pay VAT are exempted. This is an inequality.

30 vs 31 pupils is not a cost driver, it will make zero difference to costs or spending.

So why are Labour making a fanfare about getting an extra 6500 teachers?

They currently have 570,265 teachers, teaching 10,320,811 pupils. That's 1 teacher to 18.1 students. Add the extra 6500 teachers and it becomes 1 teacher to 17.9 students.

Why do you think that adding 6500 teachers will make a difference, but increasing class size from 30 to 31 won't?

In fact, if it makes so little difference why not just make that change in state schools anyway: add an extra student to each class of 30? Then you'll have an extra 19,000 teachers available in your existing workforce, freed from teaching their classes. Wouldn't that make more difference than the 6500 you'll get from adding VAT? Especially since they are currently employed, available teachers - not new ones which schools would need to find despite already having 2800 open teacher vacancies to fill.

What could you use those extra 19,000 teachers for?? Umm, maybe reducing class sizes...

Our swimming lessons are taxed. Is this not the norm?

Private businesses will already pay VAT.

For education to be exempt from VAT, it has to be an eligible body providing the education or training:

4.1 An eligible body
With effect from 1 August 2019, an eligible body is:
• a school, sixth form college, tertiary college or further education college or other centrally funded further education institution (defined as such under the Education Acts)
• a centrally funded higher education institution in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland (defined as such under the Education Acts)
• the governing body of one of these institutions:
• a local authority
• a government department or executive agency
• a non-profit making body that carries out duties of an essentially public nature similar to those carried out by a LA or government department
• health authority
• a non-profit making organisation that meets certain conditions
• a commercial provider of tuition in EFL, in which case special rules will apply (see section 9)
• a university
• a higher education provider registered in the approved (fee cap) category of the register maintained by the Office for Students from the date of inclusion in the register
4.2 Commercial providers of education (other than tuition in EFL)
If the education is provided by one of these (with a view to making and distributing profits) it is unlikely to be an eligible body:
• tutorial college
• computer training organisation
• secretarial college
• correspondence college
• partnership
4.3 A non-profit making organisation
An organisation is likely to be an eligible body, where it’s a charity, professional body or company:
• that cannot and does not distribute any profit it makes
• with any profit that might arise from its supplies of education, research or vocational training is used solely for the continuation or improvement of such supplies

So your local leisure centre, swimming pool or swim school is unlikely to fit the definition, and so if they are registered for VAT, will have to charge VAT on swimming lessons.

A lot of the people sending kids to private school are the most educated women in society. So they can just cut hours and tutor at home for free. I already did that with my 4 DC. You don’t need an 11 plus tutor, there are loads of books/apps available. I can easily get my head around anything up to GCSE level. A level physics is beyond me but that is about it.
VAT on education will just translate to DIY/ home top up/homeschool. It would be the same with eg swimming lessons - if they were 30-40 pounds I would DIY all the way.

It’s not efficient to interfere in the market ideologically in this way. It’s more efficient if I spend my time working and pay tax. If I spend more time on DCs because I have no choice but to, the taxman gets less.

Same applies to eg uni fees. There is a price point and debt point where it is only worth it if essential for the job you want to do. If not essential, students opt out. Everything has a ceiling price.

@ForWildCoralUser “They will still offer a better education than state schools for those that want to educate their kids privately, but the ~£2billion raised in VAT can benefit children who don’t have those advantages.“

Nobody in their right mind is going to pay a penalty to just get a slightly better education if they can just work less and provide the same at home. It just will not happen.
Look at what the private school parents are up to in terms of campaigning against this policy - these are not people who will just accept a penalty. Those with kids in there already will wait until the next transition point, but the rest will vote with their feet and make sure their DCs get the best of state education and a top up. The top up will just take a different form (at the moment, the private schools provided the music/drama/sports top up). It is called “state plus”. Many of the pushier middle class parents in the state sector have been doing that for years. So this VAT policy will just incentivise pretty much everyone to do just that. The only people still using private schools will be the multi multi millionaires and the parents of kids with SEN who have no other choice (even they might sue the council as best they can to get an EHCP/homeschool if cheaper/cut hours etc).

This kind of policy is pushing our most vulnerable children collectively into a homeschool/online model and away from state education and the state being responsible for in person schooling. Which is ridiculous. All the academic research is showing the actual real harms screens are having on children, both in terms of their physical and mental health and the big one, social skills. Couple that with the obesity crisis, it is incredibly irresponsible for a Government to entertain this kind of thing. Education is a social good, end of. Mess with that and you are in direct conflict with fundamental democratic principles and into discrimination territory.