Will VAT on private school fees lead to a partial collapse of the sector?

[mids2019]

Will VAT on school fees coupled with cost of living drive a lot of parents from the private sector or will the majority absorb the cost? Are the numbers that potentially end up in the public sector going to offset any gains to the treasury through VAT?

Labour are working at about 4-5% transfer rate to the public sector but is this an underestimate?

And as for talking about kids who are 'genuinely' in need vs 'pushy parents' - lovely.

So many private schools have closed in recent years, many more will do so, due to falling birth rate, VAT will have a big impact. Many parents struggle to pay the fees as it is.

And you know, the top set in various subjects at the dcs' school can take extra courses - so they're being subsidised by kids doing fewer exams. Why target SEN kids to point out they and their 'pushy parents' are draining resources.

Kids that love drama and do the theatre extras are being subsidised by SEN kids. Ditto children in the sports teams that my SEN kids don't participate in - costs subsidised by other children.

And presumably @coffeebaconandrepeat thst will be one of the options that private schools are considering - keep the core fees lower and make far more things into optional extras, which you only pay for if you use and can afford (eg some aspects of SEN support, drama, extra subjects etc). I don't like that idea, as it will then create two tiers within an individual school, but it's a possibility.

@Newbutoldfather the ISC give a breakdown.

Which of their categories would you assign to your own categories of "just not that bright" and "not genuinely in need" ?

@Roselilly36 ,

The private school sector has consolidated over the last few years and will continue to do so. This means schools close, but others grow and new ones open. It just reflects the economics of running a school and the changing demographics within the country,

The wealthy areas have become wealthier and the country increasingly London centric. My first school expanded from 350 pupils to 500+ in the time I was there. My second was also planning expansion.

As private schools increasingly become more professional in a business sense, marketing becomes a real cost, and that is more easily spread over a bigger school.

The reality is that the private school sector has massively expanded over the last decade, with a small corrective dip over the last couple of years.

(see page 10 of the attached)

www.isc.co.uk/media/9316/isc_census_2023_final.pdf

@potionsmaster I wouldn't like to see it either because even though we don't do the sports/drama/music etc we do enjoy the events as part of school life but it's already started to go that way.

@Lebr ,

A lot of the top one (many are mild dyslexia which other professionals would dispute existed) and a lot of the bottom.

The reality is that being listed gets your child advantages in support and in exams. I ended up in a lot of arguments with Sencos when I actually wanted to put support in place for certain pupils who I thought needed it as the Sencos are so used to parents pushing them to put their children on the list when they don’t have SEN.

This is kind of subsidiary to the debate, and I don’t want to get bogged down, but it is the reality.

My god daughter’s state primary didn’t pick up her dyslexia…but they did tell her mum that she should be prepared for “vocational” work as she was struggling at school. Written off at ten years old.
Whereas my DC’s private has an excellent record of identifying pupils that have dyslexia, many of whom go on to be their highest achievers. My brother in a state secondary teacher and often identifies pupils with dyslexia that wasn’t picked up in primary. The fact is that many state schools let down children with SEN. Many of the private school pupils who have SEN were previously in the state system and moved when it failed them.

I can also completely see the other side: I'm not so stupid that I don't understand the argument for intentionally damaging and reducing the private sector. But if that's what Labour want, then they need to have the integrity and the courage to be honest about it, rather than pretending that this is a policy intended to raise money for state schools.

Labour's made no secret over the last couple of generations that it would prefer to see the private education sector reduced if not eliminated entirely. I think most of the population understands that this policy is driven by that goal. It will be just the cherry on top of the sundae if it turns out to be revenue-positive.

You don't consider wanting less well-off parents to be able to continue to send their DC to a private school to keep it viable so that you have another option for your DC to be the least bit self-serving?

But I think they have made a secret of it. Starmer himself said he has 'nothing against private schools'.

He also talks a lot about wealth creation, recognising that this is the way to make the country more prosperous and enable more public spending. But the people who create wealth for the country will only do so if that also allows them to become wealthy and to spend their wealth as they wish.

"You don't consider wanting less well-off parents to be able to continue to send their DC to a private school to keep it viable so that you have another option for your DC to be the least bit self-serving?"

Self-serving? Wow, that's quite an accusation, just because I care about the future viability of the school I choose to send my dc to.

Would you be deemed self-serving by choosing/moving close to a school that is "outstanding" or "good" and not accepting a school that "requires improvement" as an example?

These parents choose private and do not take from the public purse, including those with sen, alleviating the burden on the state. And yes, some parents scrimp and scrape already. Why would anyone want to add a slab tax to them for daring to do the best they can for their children!

Honestly, what world do we live in where choosing a school for our child is now deemed self serving.

As I said in my previous post: this is causing ridiculous unnecessary division.

Let's hope this new government looks at this again properly and realise VAT on private schools is not a silver bullet, fund state schools properly (via other means), and leave private schools alone.

one reason private schools are so expensive is that the parents of high performing children (in large sets, say 24 pupils) cross subsidise the weaker pupils and SEN who tend to be in the smaller weaker sets (of 10 to 14 pupils).

Is that not also the case, possibly more extreme, in many state schools? In primaries where a disproportionate amount of the teacher's time is occupied with weaker pupils and SEN who may also be more disruptive, and in secondaries where a top math set might have 35+ children and a bottom one might have 15?

Do you know whether they have said that they will exempt children at special schools without an EHCP? From what I had seen before the election they had said they would only exempt those with an EHCP (presumably naming the school) and not special schools generally.

I have a DC close family member (not my DC) who is at a special school but was refused an EHCP to fund the place. The school have said that until fairly recently they would have been fairly confident of her getting the EHCP on appeal but things have become more tricky to predict. The DC was adopted from care and finds change very difficult so the family have pulled all of the stops out to put her there. If VAT comes in for her then I think it would become completely unmanageable, plus the school has more childen in her position than they used to (though the level of need for these children has gone up if anything!) so it may well become unviable if VAT comes in. It's immensely worrying.

Now that they are in government I hope that they look at this whole proposal carefully and don't rush to be seen to be doing something. The SEN exemptions are a particular worry, especially as everything they have said about EHCPS only applies to England.

Would you be deemed self-serving by choosing/moving close to a school that is "outstanding" or "good" and not accepting a school that "requires improvement" as an example?

Yes, I would deem that to be self-serving. Along with getting religion for exactly the two years required to meet an oversubscribed church school's admission requirements and paying for years of private tuition to prepare for grammar school exams.

You are focused on improving your own and your DC's lots, not concerned about the children who will have to go to the school which "requires improvement" or the secondary modern. That's pretty much the definition of 'self-serving'.

Most of us are self-serving, whether we send our DC to state or private. It's just more visible when parents send their DC to private school.

Labour as a party have long believed that private schools contribute to perpetuating and increasing inequality in UK society. There is a fair bit of academic research which indicates that high inequality is associated with lower economic growth once a country reaches middle income levels and returns to capital investment drop off. So this policy is not inconsistent with trying to increase growth.

Also, making private schools even more the province of the very rich, which this policy is likely to do, will not necessarily increase this inequality because fewer students will be educated in private schools.

Of course, a much bigger prize would be reducing inequality within the educational system that 93% of children use, but that's arguably a more difficult problem.

@user1477391263 ,

‘Is that not also the case, possibly more extreme, in many state schools? In primaries where a disproportionate amount of the teacher's time is occupied with weaker pupils and SEN who may also be more disruptive, and in secondaries where a top math set might have 35+ children and a bottom one might have 15?’

Yes, it is absolutely the case. But that is what a socialised system is designed to achieve, equality of opportunity for all (I am not saying it is working). The whole point of private education is for money to buy opportunity. If it weren’t, no one would choose it.

It is a bit like healthy people subsidising expensive operations on the NHS but expecting to pay the cost of your own treatment privately. How many would choose a hospital for a wisdom tooth operation which charged the same for that as open heart surgery?

“Labour as a party have long believed that private schools contribute to perpetuating and increasing inequality in UK society. There is a fair bit of academic research which indicates that high inequality is associated with lower economic growth once a country reaches middle income levels and returns to capital investment drop off. So this policy is not inconsistent with trying to increase growth.“

I think this is entirely flawed thinking in a society with such high immigration levels, including skilled immigration. Just because x elite schools waste x amounts on y pupils doing horse riding, polo and rowing and conducting/fencing etc, those are additional frills.
If the state sector sorts out basic education in Maths and English and ability to learn and relish challenge and question in the right way, whatever elite schools do becomes entirely irrelevant.
There is only a certain amount that even top private schools add to pure academics.

Looks like that What's App Group was powerful in Surrey. How many administrative hours will these bitter parents be wasting by deceitfully asking for state school places with no intention of taking them up?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jobs/schools-universities/state-schools-flooded-private-school-new-pupils/

“Bitter parents”? How do you know that they don’t actually need a state place? There are lots of private school parents who cannot afford a 20% hike in school fees, on top of general cost of living increases. We’ve all been told that there are plenty of spaces in the state system for anyone who wants to switch. If that’s true, surely there’s not a problem with a big increase in applications?

I am sure there are a few genuine switchers, but indie schools and parent what's app groups have been suggesting this tactic and it would appear it is being followed through. Shame on any who are doing this for the wrong reasons.

@Another76543
https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/private-school-parents-plotting-swamp-state-schools-3146906

We keep being told there is capacity in the state system. Some parents might feel that this simply isn’t true and that no one is listening to their concerns. The Labour Party won’t listen to sensible counter arguments. They’re not willing to engage. What else can parents do so make themselves heard? Perhaps some think this is a way of expressing their feelings and might make them heard. A lot are applying for places because they might genuinely need them.

You don’t hear of private schools getting annoyed when parents apply for several places. The vast majority of parents apply to numerous private schools as back up options. It’s standard practice.

We also know lots of parents have been plotting to falsely apply for state places with no intention of using them.