Steiner School behaviour deterioration

[Hannah1110897]

Hello,

I have never posted in one of these places before so I don't know all of your lingo.

I have a little boy who is 8 and who has been in the private school sector since 3 years old. I took him out of the prep school to try Steiner because he was struggling academically but his behaviour at the Steriner school has deteriorated massively.

The school takes a totally different approach to teaching (which I wanted) but these children have SO much freedom they are basically feral. They don't wear a uniform, they call teachers by their first names, there is no discipline or consequences approach to naughty behaviour. They use crayons instead of pencils. I feel like he is being treated like a toddler and so he is acting like one. My son has not progressed academically all year, he is refusing to do his work at school and randomly gets up and walks out of the classroom whenever he feels like it and there is no punishment at school for this.

Other mums are telling me to 'trust the process' but I am at my wits end. He is becoming rude and disrespectful at home, he isn't following my rules, he is going off the rails completely. When I tried to raise my concerns I was told that children misbehave where they feel 'safe' but I am not buying that at all. So my son feels safer at school than he does at home? eye roll. I feel like he is taking advantage of the situation and escalating his behaviour because there have been no appropriate consequences. He's trying to find the boundaries and what he is finding is that there aren't any boundaries. Its chaos. But the school and the parents keep putting it back on to me and saying I need to give him more attention at home (I am a single working professional mum with two children and no dad in the picture) or I need to trust the process.

Has anyone else had a similar experience moving to Steiner from prep or mainstream ed?

Any advice would be appreciated because I am inclined to pull him out of the school right now.

Thank in advance xx

It doesn’t sound like Steiner education is right for you - that’s OK, it’s not for everyone. If you can’t or don’t want to ‘trust the process’ then you have little choice but to pull him out. You really have to be aligned with the ethos at home too and it sounds like you probably are not. Have you read up on the principles behind the Steiner school of thought?

However, pulling him out of another educational setting is going to be disruptive and affect his behaviour and learning too, so choose your next steps wisely.

Your son sounds a little like my son at that age. In fact my son was a tricky child even at nursery and right through to secondary. D

I found that my boy thrives off routine but does not like big, busy classrooms. He is easily distracted and loves to distract others. He found it impossible to sit at a desk all day so primary, without all the chances for get up and walking around like they used to have, was really hard.
Now that he is at secondary and he has to walk between lessons every hour he's a lot, lot better. He also has to walk for 30 minutes up a hill to get to school - I think this exercise before school really helps him settle once he's there.

I was very worried and stressed when my boy was 8 and being so difficult. A good colleague told me not to worry - it will all be fine in the end, He was right.

We tend to over worry as parents. Keep giving your boy lot's of love and hugs and talking things through, stick to you bolundaries at home and it's all you can really do.

Oh, and perhaps find a small school, with small class sizes and with good set routines and less chaos like the steiner - I think my boy would have run amok there too!

The home education community is full of kids who are ex Steiner. I’ve heard many horror stories. Being diplomatic, this isn’t working for your family. Do you have any small, nurturing private schools (if you want to stay private) near you. They often do lots of forest school type work without the chaos.

I can't believe anyone would pay for a Steiner education.

There have been some huge safeguarding fails within Steiner schools, and many reports criticising the quality of teaching.

Is there a reason you decided to choose a Steiner school? Also how much research did you do into what a Steiner school is before choosing to send DS there? Did you think it was an alternative way of learning, like a Montessori School, or did you know all about anthroposophy and their other beliefs?

My advice, take him out and change his school. Unfortunately it could take years to undo the damage, but the sooner you make the change the better.

Mumsnet hates Steiner so if you want to hear a Steiner bashing, this is the place to be.

I don’t feel that way and think Steiner can be great, really depends on the management and the teachers, like anywhere.

I echo what other PPs have said - you don’t like the ethos of the school and you should find somewhere that you are able to trust - as you say, you don’t trust the process there. There’s nothing wrong with that, by the way! When you’re paying for school, you’re paying for an ideology you’re aligned to!

I’d be quite wary about moving him around too much though. I’d find somewhere you’re happy to stick to for the long run.

Is there not another non-academically selective private school near you? Or what’s your local state school like?

(Also - he sounds like a fairly normal 8 year old. Not wanting to sit down and “work” etc.)

I sent my son to a very purist Montessori primary school (2-11yo) for nursery. I thought it was wonderful because it looked so beautiful- intricate little learning sets all laid out on trays, big focus on independent learning, the outdoors etc. However, my DS was incredibly stressed by it. At first he was mute there (talking perfectly well at home) and then he started to refuse to do anything, be aggressive towards other children over resources and once threw something at the Headteacher because she had told him to sit at his table to finish the 'work period'. He was biting his fingers until they bled.

We had been planning all along to move him to a different prep school for Reception. The Head of the Montessori called DH and I in and told us DS had behavioural and maybe learning difficulties. They said the other prep school would not be able to address them and we should 'trust the process' with them. I began to doubt myself and thought maybe they were right...

However, we moved across the country with DH's job just before Reception and DS ended up starting at a small, traditional, country prep school. He never had those problems again. We took his development journal in after a couple of weeks and his new teacher said it was horrible, not about the boy she saw and that we should throw it away. DS has never had any difficulties like that again and is now in the top sets of a public school, on track for 8/9s at GCSE.

No setting is right for every child.

No setting is right for every child. I 100% agree with this. @WASZPy The Montessori school did your child wrong by not seeing that it was clearly the wrong fit for your DS. A good setting would say “this doesn’t suit your child, try X”.

Montessori, Steiner, state, academic prep, non-academic prep… all can be great or awful (or middling!) depending on the people running it. The label doesn’t guarantee a school.

D went to a Steiner school that the Local Authority paid the fees for. Yes there was no uniform and staff were addressed by their first name but it didnt seem to be a gateway to bad behaviour and disrespect. In fact d had previously attended a mainstream secondary school and despite the strict uniform and the expectation of calling staff Sir or Miss there was a lot more bad behaviour and disrespect.
How long has your son been at the school? Is he happy there? I know d felt nothing but relief when she started her school, she enjoyed the peace and the gentle pace. She wasn't somebody who needed strong boundaries as she finds it easy to self regulate. If your son has experienced strong boundaries in his previous school he might be feeling a little lost without them.
It may be he needs longer too settle or maybe it's not the right school for him only you can decide that really.

Thanks for the response. I did do a lot of research into the ethos before moving him, at least I thought I did. I knew it was a child centred approach and that more focus would be placed on creative learning and different learning styles. My son is super creative, very artistic, loves being outdoors and so the school seemed like a great fit. The children don't have any technology in or outside of school which I also liked but I didn't know the school had such a lax approach to boundaries and expectations for behaviour.

There is no way I could have known that his behaviour would deteriorate the way it has but it is since he started this school. Some of the behaviour he is getting away with at the school he would be excluded for from any other school. Last week he ran away from teachers and 3 of them were chasing him around the school. IMAGINE!! There is no way this is acceptable, he never should have felt that this was an option for him to do.

Same. - a few years back though.
I would take him out. My DS lasted two terms and honestly it was awful for him. He had undiagnosed ADHD and I think felt very unsafe and un-secure there.

The model is such that often children with SEN end up there because of the reputation of creativity and less formality - and because of the very formal setting of most primary schools. But this model then ends up failing those very children. Bullying is rife, dangerous and spiteful behaviour is not checked at all. Playing in the woods and unstructured play sounds great, but when you have teachers who just stand and watch bullying it becomes very dark.

I did the research, as a creative industry worker I fell for the rose-tinted idea of 'creativity' and bread-baking loveliness and smiling adults. Honestly it's really not that - it's the opposite. The prescriptiveness of the teaching is more set in stone than any other teaching, and a 120 year-old pedagogy that by definition cannot change with evidence or society is rigid and archaic (and based on...ahem... pre-war German ideology and questionable views on race). Take a look at the paintings they do - every one the same, every technique the same. Each class has a prescribed door colour; each 'craft activity' is actually a semi-religious prescribed activity designed to fulfil a development stage arbitrarily decreed by Steiner (knitting, carving a sword, etc)- so there is no variation at all.

It's a formula based on questionable beliefs and very old science. We can do better and still do creative things and not force our children to sit at desks all day.

Steiner schools allow any behaviour, up to and including the worst bullying, because "if your guardian angel is allowing it to happen to you, then they have judged that you need it."

Thank you, I feel so much better knowing that I am not the only one who has had this sort of experience with Steiner. think I misunderstood the idea of a 'child-centred approach' to learning. I thought that meant that the school would figure out what each child responds best to and then do that but our experience has been that Steiner is just another 'one-size fits all approach'. This is what we were trying to get away from in mainstream. I think I am going to have to look at homeschooling maybe.

Thank you again for your responses xx

Children don’t have different learning styles. Everyone learns best the same way, via direct instruction. Children with SEN benefit the most from clear boundaries and direct high quality teaching and suffer the most from education without routines or structures.

I think you've already been reassured but for what it's worth I was very keen for our child to go to the nursery setting of a Waldorf school. It was on our doorstep so thought it would match not only ethos but also be super convenient. I didn't get a good vibe from the head especially when he said at one point that policies "were not worth the paper they were written on!" my daughter has a medical condition so some things I wanted to be very sure on and this was a really weird response. After I did do more research into the philosphy and found, as has already been mentioned here, some quite disturbing things online. The school actually closed a couple of years after. My impression from the parents I know with kids at "mainstream" private schools is that they are very academically driven (kids can already read and write before reception year and there are entrance exams even for this age group) but I'm sure you know this already. Are there no appropriate state schools where you live? The school our daughter attends now has so far been great. It really fits her and they have so far addressed any issues very quickly. (concerning both progress and wellbeing)

It sounds shite OP. Definitely move him at the end of the term.

@romanatonic I think there are a lot of private schools like that in London, but outside London there are a whole range. Both my son's went to a non-selective prep school - which was fabulous, there were a couple of kids who could read before they went to school, but that was it. DD went to a more academic prep, which didn't suit her at all and now she goes to a less selective secondary - the level of SEN support she gets there is amazing, you would never get that in a state. She's in a class of 12 for many lessons and has 3 periods of 1-2-1 help a week.
DS1 goes to a state school now (a grammar) and all the others had a little time in a state school for primary (different ones) and the teaching, behaviour management, parental engagement and curriculum breadth was so far below all the private schools we tried.

If you can afford it, I would definitely look for a non-selective prep.

I think Steiner is for families who practise the exact same ethos at home. I have a friend who is one of 8 children. She is a consultant psychiatrist now and 6 of her siblings are doctors or psychologists, 1 is a film director. They all went to Steiner school and are hippies and wonderful gentle parenting vegan types who only use trains and do not get on planes very often at all. They are perfect in many ways. However, there is no way my own DC and we could have ever thrived in a Steiner school. We just have a completely different approach to life. I think their parents taught them emotional self regulation from 1 kind of thing. My DC are parented with clear routines and high expectations/strict boundaries so Steiner would never ever have worked for us. My DC look to adults for external validation and they love getting good grades etc. Internal validation is never going to be enough for them. They are competitive etc

Incidentally my friend’s own DS who is also near perfect and exceptionally gifted in music gets bullied in mainstream school because he does not know how to be unkind back and stand up for himself. He has been brought up the Steiner way and is wonderful. But in this day and age with no tech? I do wonder. Back in our time it was simply no TV and that was more manageable.

When choosing a school you need to find one that accords with your own parental values and parenting style, if you can. In all likelihood, you then find a parent group you fit into and the children find like minded individuals too. It can be found in the state and private sector. It can be difficult working it out though especially with a first child and especially if you have some personal challenges like an absent father. Do you have any brothers/father etc to step in for a similar role?

I am so relieved to see this perspective on Steiner schools here. I had long held hopes on Steiner being a silver bullet to our DS’s school tribulations, and finally went to an open day today in the Greenwich Steiner School. I couldn’t shake a feeling that it was quite a stifling school, and weirdly strict despite what they said. We were drawn to Steiner schools by the idea that the learning may be more child-led, more autonomy, more time outdoors, no tests, varied activities. However, we were told that the early years classes only spend one hour outdoors each day! By comparison, DS’s current school has only one hour indoors each day during Reception, and the rest is child-led play outdoors or indoors as they choose (it is a regular state primary). The artwork felt quite cookie cutter (within the Greenwich school and also when compared to the artwork of friends’ children who are Steiner educated) - there doesn’t seem to be true freedom of expression, or fostering of individual creative thought. The teachers didn’t seem to have the same spark or energy or individuality that the teachers in DC’s current school have. The school layout and decor itself didn’t create a sense of space and freedom for kids but rather restricted them. It felt strangely strict and controlling eg children not allowed to use chalk on the chalkboard; despite the chalk and chalkboard being at child height in an open, empty classroom. Teachers kept talking about creativity throughout the open day, but I didn’t see any evidence of anything more creative than what you would see at a regular school - except for the woodwork stations which obviously most state primaries are unlikely to have! DC is suspected to be neurodivergent and I think he would wreak absolute havoc at a Steiner school. My impression is that it would not suit those with particularly high energy, wilful dispositions or those with a high need for autonomy.

What you describe is not what Steiner schools are about - so he is in a bad one.

These schools are very structured in their curriculum and in relation to behaviour. Not wearing a uniform and calling teachers by their first names is not - should not - indicate laissez-faire and poor discipline.

I hope you have managed to find a good alternative for your son this year. For what it’s worth, we went to an open day at Greenwich Steiner today, and we also thought that our son would run riot there. It is definitely not for all dispositions. I saw your post about three teachers chasing your son through school and I laughed so hard! That would absolutely be our son too, so I hope you feel at least a little reassured! We have been considering various formats of homeschooling for when our son is older - we both work full time. So far online homeschooling with a mix of homeschooling clubs looks like our most promising potential alternative to mainstream primaries. Like you, the idea I had of Steiner from doing research and speaking to Steiner families is very different from the reality. Best of luck with finding the best possible setting for your son 🙂 it sounds like you are putting lots of thought into this and your son is very lucky to have you x

All 4 of the Saccone Jolly children (high profile YouTube / Insta / TikTok influencers) have left their private school and have joined a Steiner school.

It would be interesting to see if they document any of the differences - positive or negative with the transition from a private school to a Steiner school.

I found that the Steiner school in theory was completely different in practice. The curriculum was very rigid, rather than giving the children autonomy there was a very specific, prescribed way expected, particularly wrt art. And yes the behaviour was diabolical, and I'm a very relaxed parent. The parents who 'trust the process' are the ones who very much buy into the whole anthroposophy beliefs.

My son is at a Steiner school and we haven’t experienced that at all. As someone said, Steiner schools are actually very structured, they have to be as the curriculum is very specific and fixed. It sounds like your expectations don’t quite align with the ethos.

The kindergarten years in the Steiner system are play based, in the early years it is very much about children navigating social dynamics within the class, learning activities and about laying the foundations of academics. They don’t actually start to learn academics until class 1 (age 7). This is based on the idea that children are simply not ready (both mentally and physically) and in fact many studies show that if they do start academics early, they become bored by it by the early teenage years.

This is not unusual to start acedemics later, most of Scandinavia and parts of Europe eg Austria and Switzerland do not start formal school until age 6. With Steiner schools children have got all the play and social challenges out of their system in the early years, by age 7 they are eager to learn and catch up very quickly. You can see this in many stats.

Teachers respond to behavioural issues in a proactive manner and through positive associations. They are also quick to curb any bullying. There is a lot of misinformation around Steiner and letting bullies behave badly, but this is not something you can associate with Steiner schools in general.

Yes children can wear their own clothes, they have the choice to decide this for themselves. Like many countries in Europe. Someone told me that “mainstream schools tell you what to think” and Steiner schools “show you how to think’”. They create critical thinkers, they get students to ask questions and debate things. They don’t get students to just learn and recite something to pass a test, they go beyond this.

It depends on your own beliefs and ideals of schooling. It won’t suit every child, in the same way that mainstream school doesn’t suit every child. Your child and yourself may need time to adjust to this new way of learning.

I used to live near a Steiner School. The kids were, as you describe, completely and utterly feral. (This school has since closed due to some pretty damning reports).
I think that unfortunately there are some educators that think that Steiner means letting the kids do whatever the hell they like.

It's not that "Mumsnet hates Steiner schools".

It's rather that there have been many deeply concerning issues regarding safeguarding, as documented by Ofsted https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/feb/01/ofsted-asks-government-to-look-closely-at-steiner-schools-in-england

This is before getting into the tiny detail that Rudolf Steiner was a very questionable individual: occultist, esotericist, clairvoyant - I know I wouldn't want to entrust my child's education to his followers.

Steiner schools follow an antiscientific approach (critical of evolution, pro homeopathy) https://humanists.uk/2012/09/14/news-1115/ and other sorts of very questionable behaviour https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/steiner-schools-have-some-questionable-lessons-for-today-s-children-a7402911.html

To be honest it sounds like bad management in some of these Steiner schools in England, because they do not have the same reputation in terms of safeguarding across Europe and Australia, in fact quite the opposite.

Rudolf Steiner was the founder of Biodynamics for early 1900s farming practices, if you look into the detail, he actually was ahead of his time in terms of science. Yes he looked at things in a holistic way and there are aspects of spirituality, but it is no different to those seen in Anglican or Catholic schools.

People have to remember that he lived in the late 1800s/early 1920s and was an innovator at the time. Much of what he spoke about was history retold, he was a translator for the time. Many of his ideas came from the ancient Greeks etc.

100 years later, there are without doubt aspects of his philosophy that some may agree or disagree with and he was very much a product of his time, but a quality Steiner school will actually take those good aspects and turn it in holistic modern curriculum. In Australia, Steiner schools also get funding from the government so they have to comply with government guidelines.