Primary schools in/near London with % of leavers to grammar?

[Schoolgifted17]

Hello

can anyone advise on schools to target re the above? Ds about to go into year 3 and (long story) need to move him from an academically focused pre prep into state sector. The plan would then be to try for grammar or 11+ at indies. Ds extremely bright (go through to 2nd round St Paul’s at 7+) so want to send him to a school where there is a ‘work hard’ culture and significant numbers attend grammars from year 7. Currently in sw London but happy to stay or move to right area/catchment.

In my experience, the state primaries that send a lot of their kids to grammars and selective secondaries tend to be a) located near grammars and selective secondaries and b) have a lot of parents who are tutoring outside school.

I would just pick a nice, happy school with a wide curriculum and engage a good tutor early so that you're not having to cram last minute.

DD was at an 'on paper' very high achieving primary that regularly sent a lot of kids to selectives, but I know that while their teaching was good, it was the prep outside school (and a lot of very pointy elbowed parents).that got the results for both SATS and 11+

I agree with @OhCrumbsWhereNow that state primaries don't prepare children for the super-selective grammars and that success in the 11+ is not down to the primary school but down to preparation at home or with a tutor.

If you're looking for an in-year admission you may not have your choice of schools - you'll have to go where there is a space. And, you'd be expected to move fairly quickly once allocated a space. (Although the infants class size rule doesn't apply from Year 3, so more chance of getting in on appeal).

I'd concur with the poster above - some parents targeting grammar do so much tutoring outside of school that the school is largely irrelevant (and, as noted, state schools don't prepare for grammar anyway).

Hi all, thanks. Yes realise that tuition will be required. My question is more about which schools have a record/culture where lots of pupils apply for grammar?

State primaries will follow the national curriculum, and the super-selective grammars will expect pupils to be achieving comfortably beyond this, so an excellent state primary school (however stellar its SATs results) is not by itself your golden ticket to a grammar school place.

It sounds like your main criterion for a school is ‘pushy parents’.

Find out where the grammars are and look at schools and areas near to the grammars, and on convenient public transport routes to the grammars. Also, look for affluent areas, as most parents will be paying a lot of money for tutoring or prep schools.

I’m not from London but I understand from reading other threads that some of the London state/private grammars have something of a monoculture – so if you can work out where children with those ethnic/cultural backgrounds live, it might lead you to primary schools with a high number of children aiming for the super selective grammars.

You can just raise FOI request to the individual grammar schools to ask for the list of primary schools the year 7 intake transfer from.

Alternatively, as PP mention I think you can go with the school with good proportion of certain ethnicities which will give you the culture and environment for applying for grammar schools in London.

I think the culture and environment you want can be also found in the weekend 11+ tutoring centre sw London or nw London, no need to be in the school.

I think the Good Schools Guide highlights some state primary schools where there's a likely cohort within that will try for grammar/independent secondary schools.

You might also want to ensure that you pick a school that perhaps isn't focused so much on academics that they drop the ball on things like music, drama, art and sport.

Given the tuition part will be mainly done outside school, do you really want your child in a class full of angsty, results driven, competitive parents all trying to get the edge?

If I had flexibility of moving as you have I would move somewhere near Brompton Manor school or any other comprehensive that has amazing Oxbridge acceptance rate. Far more important than grammar or not grammar.

We live near superselective grammars and have an infant/junior school, so had to reapply for junior school, although there was a linked school almost all move on to. This naturally made some parents look around at options. A friend viewed another nearby primary, although would have been relying on a waiting list place. They get a higher % of students achieving greater depth and likely more grammar school places. She asked the school what they did in regards to grammar prep and was told it is nothing to do with them.

You could target schools with a high % of greater depth pupils, as this suggests a high achieving cohort. But as PP have said, you are relying on in year spaces, and the most popular schools will likely have waiting lists so you probably need to live quite near. If you were very quick, you could do an application to junior schools that start at year 3, although it will be a late application and most will likely prioritise on distance or being at an associated infant school.

Honestly though I would just apply for your local schools and see where has space. The schools in London are largely pretty good. Most will have some high achievers and encourage hard work. You can supplement with tutoring anyway. Our bright DD is at a decent school, but not one of the ones people fight to get in to, and is doing well.

are you looking for this September or September 2025?

honestly any primary school worth its salt should cater for all abilities? and you really might not get any choice anyway as it's not a standard entry point?

am curious - why would getting to the second round of the St Pauls' process (but ultimately not getting in) mean he's "extremely bright"?

I am also about this " bright" remark as if the entry exams were based on IQ test and not a knowledge. There are many bright kids that are not getting into grammar and many average who get in. Simply it is very much down to focus, attention, determination and hard work. "bright" is not enough.

Thank you all.
Simply put, getting to 2nd round St Paul’s is extremely competitive and the papers are hard. It is the ‘top’ boys school in the country in terms of academic results. Therefore any child who reached this round is academically able, if not extremely bright

"getting to 2nd round St Paul’s is extremely competitive and the papers are hard. It is the ‘top’ boys school in the country in terms of academic results."

I would seriously doubt this statement, how many boys actually take the 7+ test for St Paul's.... A lot of academic able kids in the country at that stage are probably still enjoying their primary school life rather than paying time and money for this test that primarily pushed forward by ambitious parents.

@PreplexJ 450 boys sit first round, 90 invited back to second round for 45 places. So I would say you have to be academically able to get through to 2nd round or a place.

Academic able as in a small scope of 450 boys that self put forward at age 6 in London.

@PreplexJ you are clearly not familiar with the blood bath that 7+ is in London. Entry to St Paul’s is the most competitive and schools only tend to encourage the brightest boys to apply. Ditto for Kings, Westminster Under and City.

Not sure what your point is but my son is academically able and working way above expected level.

@Schoolgifted17

"Entry to St Paul’s is the most competitive and schools only tend to encourage the brightest boys to apply. Ditto for Kings, Westminster Under and City."

All these boys under 6 probably are encouraged by the Pre-Prep schools to apply all these schools, and probably it is the same pool of boys with the parents with ambitious mindset. The brightest boys/academic-able are limited to the scope of Pre-Prep school which probably account for less than 5% of the student populations of the age group in London.

It is a vicious circle, and there is a much bigger world outside.

OMG so many ppl harping on about finding a less academic school, all schools being the same etc. They are not. I don't have actual advice for you as I'm in a similar situation to you.

Coming from your average prep your child will already be a year advanced in most cases. There will be a lot of boredom to factor in. Your child will be well versed to working hard and discipline if they got to round 2 st Pauls. We didn't do enough research moving from our prep, and have found the peer groups for ds and dd to be lacking. Our son in y2 for example can write stories has read harry Potter, ( only book 1 so far ), can draw, have a fluent conversation and is in a class where the teacher has just started to show children how to join their writing and have started read full stories. He is bored and we are worried. He wasn't the top of his class in his prep, now I think he's a able as all of the year 3's. Don't even get me started on my older dd....

Apart from reading a book at bed time we have never tutored or done homework with them etc. This is literally the level your average prep school is at.

Maybe look for a school with sets? This was suggested to me and i like the idea. I don't know what age sets start from, but putting our kids in a set with children who are actually willing and able to study would be better than our current " happy " school.

I have just taken out a subscription to the good school guide and I'm writing to the grammers ( council ) I'm interested in to get info on feeder schools. I think this is the best bet for us. There are also private 11+ tutoring outfits that may have a lot of this info. For example I think it was Atom, they can tell you how many children have joined each grammars from state vs private, I would assume they will have a list of state feeder schools. We are currently researching grammars for our dd, and will enroll with one of the tutoring outfits to get some proffesional advice. Might be worth a shot for you aswell??

The minute you ask for this sort of information in the state sector ppl think your pushy and get quite defensive, but the reality is if you have a really bright kid like yours is, well they need to be kept busy, interested, and motivated.

All the info is there somewhere but finding it is hard, it's almost as if being successfully academic is an embarrassment. I'm not looking at London otherwise I'd send you my meagre findings.

Good luck, I think in and around London schools should be more used to being asked about their academic output / destinations.

@FlyingHigh55 thsnk you for your message.
i have done pretty much all the things you mention and everything you say reflects the situation with my DC. He just started at an Outstanding state school and as you say, he’s bored and complaining about why maths and English are so easy. I’m told by the school that they don’t ‘set’ , that is not the philosophy these days as they feel more able children do better in mixed ability sets…
My dc had sudoku in his bag and a library book printed provided by me to do/read when he’s finished the work.
Ive told my dc to have fun doing his other lessons and thankfully he has made friends. He cries sometimes about how fun his other (prep) school was compared to this one
i am continuing to have him tutored and hoping to save tp send him private at 10 or 11+ with a bursa. Also we have 2 good state schools and a grammar in the local area.

@FlyingHigh55 and you are right, I think the teachers have marked me out as pushy when I asked them if they could challenge dc with more difficult work…I was just told that he would be given more ‘in depth’ questions
but I understand that a handful did pass exams for one of the local (v competitive) grammars so perhaps I’m not the only ‘pushy parent ‘

also locrating is a really good tool to look at school results feeder schools etc

You're looking for something which doesn't exist. State primaries don't/can't teach at the same level as an academic pre-prep in London.

There are too many kids in the class, who are all at different levels with differing needs academically and pastorally. They also don't offer the same in terms of sport/drama etc

That's why you have academic pre-preps in London.

You'll have to either get a loan and go back to the previous school or supplement the extra stuff yourself.

You're looking for something which doesn't exist. State primaries don't/can't teach at the same level as an academic pre-prep in London.

There's a wide range of state primaries even, or especially, in London. Some teach with expectations pretty comparable to academic pre-preps. Unfortunately, they tend to be rather oversubscribed so it helps a lot to be of the right religions and live in the right catchments.

Here's a school less than 250m from me which neither of my DC could get places at. Some highlights:

• 100% of Pupils meeting expected standard in reading, writing and maths vs 60% average for England
• 44% of Pupils achieving at a higher standard in reading, writing and maths
• 114 Average score in reading vs 105 average for England
• 117 Average score in maths vs 104 average for England
• 1 Disadvantaged pupil out of 27 last year - and I think that's more than in their average year.
• They send quite a few of their pupils to selective independents at 11+
• They demand that parents support the school in all ways and openly state that they are not the right primary school for everyone

This is not the only state primary with these characteristics. But getting an occasional place in a school like this will be very difficult, even if you were able and willing to move next door. So I agree with your last statement.

You'll have to either get a loan and go back to the previous school or supplement the extra stuff yourself.

my dc is being tutored to keep them up to the standard of texting at a prep and I’m looking at state grammars or a bursary at private for 11👍+. There is also a good state comp not too far.