Disappointment of 11+ exams

[worriedmom1981]

Hi, this thread is just more to vent and for some moral support. My DD is in state primary, according to all her teachers and reports she is very bright, does above expectations. She has also been tutored for over 2 years or so.
We are doing 11+ exams now, and the results are coming in and it appears she does quite badly and she is not even getting to the second stage. I don't know what to think, either she is just as bright as I thought or something. But my disappointment level is so high and I am pretty much in depression now. I feel like all the money I spent on tutors and the hours I spent working with her have been completely useless and down the drain

Growth mindset isn't a damaging and terrible idea.

It is about knowing how to play that particular game

i think araminta’s comment here is particularly salient.

I also think the flip side of this is…
my DH & I were great at “taking exams” and sold the 90s/00s lie that there is a direct correlation between good education and a good job.

The reality was we had poor soft skills /poor understanding of the world of work and office politics. Post graduation was a ROUGH time 🥴🥴😅

Some of the most successful people I work with have on paper much “poorer” educations than I do. They also aren’t necessarily “better” than me at work but they are amazing operators.

I can imagine it IS totally disappointing
BUT
it’s potentially a good learning opp for

• resilience / overcoming setbacks which so many lack these days
• teaching your daughter that there’s more than one way to do things and to succeed.

it is evil, and thankfully consigned to history, along with brain gym, learning styles and all other crap educational "research" chucks at us on a regular basis.

People who make a living selling educational research are not scientists, not medically trained, and have only the vaguest idea of what "research" actually means

The tutoring is not a waste. It's a good grounding to build up from.
I have kids in my family who are at uni. They did the 11 plus but didn't do well enough to get into grammar but still did well at GCSEs and A levels.
Now they're at uni, they're with dc who came from private, grammar and State.
Not doing well in the 11 plus is not a hindrance to success.

I scraped some of my 11 plus exams. Today i would definitely fail because I am absolutely terrible at spatial reasoning.
However I did end up at a grammar and absolutely thrived. I was in the top five of the year in most subjects and top ten overall - out of 110. I left with some of the best A levels and went to study a sought after subject at a top university, alongside kids from Eton and Winchester etc. The first in my family to pursue education beyond age 15.
I firmly believe 11 plus tell you v little about academic potential beyond a certain point.
If you are scoring extremely low than perhaps selective isn’t right but if you’re just being pipped at the post by people then it feels like a blunt tool.
I particularly loathe spatial reasoning- unless you want to be an architect or engineer - I simply fail to see how it’s a measure of intelligence or has any bearing on future performance.

l believe that the acceptance rate in most grammar schools is around 1 in 10. I think l would remind your daughter of this fact and say that for every successful child there are nine disappointed children. I would then go on to say that you are very proud of her for giving it a go but know that she will do really well at the local school and that nearly all her friends will be there too. It is a disappointment but this is really all it is. Resilience was mentioned upthread and she will soon get over it. Anyway, most of us have been educated in comprehensive schools for the past fifty years and most of us have gone on to have really good lives in our chosen fields.

My DD failed second stage - her tutor assessment before she started gave every indication she would score highly.

Looking back I think not enough time was spent on answering the longer maths questions at speed.

Anyway she aced gcse's and is looking at oxbridge so it really didn't mean it's over.

If you interpret Growth mindset to mean telling all kids regardless of ability they could achieve anything if they just tried harder then yes that is evil.

If you believe growth mindset is just about reframing children's understanding of how they themselves can improve relative to their starting point, and how finding something hard isn't always a good reason to give up straight away, then you don't consider it evil.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2021/04/08/growth-mindset-the-classroom-gimmick-that-could-be-the-real-deal/?sh=266674699152

@Araminta1003

11 plus is not about being bright or overtutoring. It is about performing quickly under pressure and processing fast and accurately. It is about knowing how to play that particular game.

This is so true, especially the bit about playing the game.

When our son did his 11+, we didn't "tutor" as such, but a local tutor did exam prep and mock exams, so we sent him for those for a few sessions. The mock exams were absolutely brilliant as they were held in genuine "exam style" conditions in a church hall set out as an exam room, tutor and his wife acted as the invigilators, timings were exact, drink/snack/loo break were exact, etc. Basically as close to the "real" experience as possible. DS loved it as he's the kind who hates the unfamiliar and, of course, primary schools don't really do much in the way of "formal exams". Another area that the tutor worked hard on was timings, i.e. working out the "time per question" based on total marks for each paper and time allowed, and following from that, techniques for how to get through the paper, i.e. answer all you can answer easily first, then go back and start again with the ones you couldn't answer at first, go through it again, still leaving the ones you can't answer, and finally when time is running out, only then go back and make "informed" guesses as to the unanswered ones. DS had been struggling really in practice papers to know what to do about "hard" questions, i.e. whether to guess at first, how much time to spend, etc etc., so having a "plan" really helped him. Feedback after the mocks was also highly useful as the tutor didn't go through and tell him the right answer for each, he concentrated on technique, i.e. what worked, what didn't, rather than obsessing about the detail of the answer to each (answer sheet was handed out for DS to look at in his own time). So, basically, it was ALL about exam practice and exam technique, not about the actual subject matter. I'd say DS probably gained 15-25% higher marks just from confidence and technique.

The "play the game" continues throughout GCSEs, A levels and degree too. It shouldn't be that way, but to get maximum marks, you have to "play the game", which is why reading and studying the examiner's comments after an exam is just as important as doing practice papers. You have to work backwards from what the examiners are awarding marks for, rather than working forwards from your knowledge, sadly! But that's the game!

https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-does-growth-mindset-matter-the-debate-heats-up/#:~:text=In%20a%20few%20cases%2C%20student,were%20most%20likely%20to%20benefit.

Interesting about spatial reasoning, it’s the one that DD shines at. Maths - average. English - failed 11+ English paper but got 2 x 7s at GCSE. Spatial reasoning off the charts - we really laughed that the Morrisby careers test measures it but has no idea what to suggest to those with average Maths/English but excellent spatial skills 😂

is not my interpretation, it is what growth mindset actually is - the idea is that any failure is actually character flaw.

It is a self fullfilling prophesy, because anyone who doesn't succeed at any given task has by definition not shown growth mindset, and hence it can be shown that everyone who has shown growth mindset has succeeded.

I think you are the one who has not understood it, which is understandable, as it is all dressed up in nicey nicey language , whereas it is like some sort of blood sucking cult in reality - but luckily, as I said, now on the scrap heap

@SwedeCaroline i am in educational research and you have a wrong understanding of what Carol Dwek’s growth mindset actually means.

@SwedeCaroline i am in educational research and you have a wrong understanding of what Carol Dwek’s growth mindset actually means.

I was in exactly the same position as your child 25 years ago - been told I was extremely clever by my parents and (state) school, tutored from Y3/4 for 11 plus, parents were paying an insane amount for a tutor who 'guaranteed' 11 plus success and I was apparently the first person she taught who did not achieve a single offer. I still remember the day my mum picked me up from school telling me I did not even manage second round for our back up school and she had been crying all day because of the result. I cannot even begin to describe what it all did to my confidence and mental health - I started secondary on a low, was bullied horribly and started to make plans on how I could end my life by 13.

I thankfully managed to turn it around, did excellently academically, went to med school and have gone on to have a successful career.

My children go to an academically selective prep school and when I see how they are taught, it is clear as day why I did not get far at the 11 plus. They are subtly taught techniques from the day they start in reception. Working under time pressure and exam conditions is second nature to my child in Y3 - they don't blink at the idea. They also have the competitive music and sports in their curriculum. I am not saying children from a state school have no hope, they most certainly do but they are up against a lot of competition and need to not only be exceptional, but perform this way on the day.

As many others have said, don't worry about the results and focus on keeping your DC's confidence high. All that tutoring has put them in a very good position for starting secondary and they will start ready to learn. Don't make the mistake my parents did and make them feel like they are a failure - it is very hard to pull yourself out of that low and sometimes I look back and think it is an absolute miracle I got to where I am today given how I was feeling at the time

Please do not let your child know you're disappointed. It's not a waste of money, hopefully it's given them a good grounding in maths and English and will make the transition to secondary easier

Better to go to a secondary school and thrive than struggle at a grammar school. And maybe she would have struggled, you don't know. Keep your disappointment to yourself and be positive about her next school. She will succeed if she has it in her.

@morechocolateneededtoday - does the prep allow your DC to be openly competitive?
Because one thing we struggled with in state primary was that my DC were constantly told from Reception not to reveal their reading levels, test scores, music grades to other DC, in case it made other DC feel bad.
Part of the reason my DC seemed to enjoy 11 plus was because they were finally allowed to be their naturally competitive selves and celebrate that. All that stifled ambition/drive/competitive spirit was allowed to be released. Of course, I did make sure they didn’t tell other DC their 11 plus results. And I think I find their inherent competitiveness embarrassing and part of the reason we chose grammar was because it was ok to be competitive there, the schools even encouraged it somewhat (kids told class and year averages constantly for tests and constant testing throughout). So if I had a child who doesn’t thrive on competition I would be quite worried about sending them into that environment.

no I don't, I know exactly what it means, and when you a=say you are in "educational research" I am prepared to bet my house you don't actually have the foggiest what "research" actually means - if you do then you are the first educational researcher I have ever come across who does.

Please explain your scientific qualifications and experiences that qualify you to call yourself a researcher

You’re being ridiculous & have misunderstood the concept. I’ve seen its positive impact on children. Also, it hasn’t been consigned to history. It’s very much still a thing in our LA.

I failed my 11+ exam.

I’m 52 years old and still remember my mothers disappointment and how I was a failure in her eyes.

I went on (after going to a very rough secondary modern school) to go on to an excellent university and get a degree and masters. I have a very successful career.

Please don’t show your daughter your disappointment, there’s no reason she won’t thrive in another school.

My son summed it up for me, aged 10.

“You take an exam, if you get this many marks, you go to the right school and if you get this many marks you also go to the right school.”

I liked the simplicity in his thinking and it certainly took the pressure off!

@SwedeCaroline I am going to step away from this conversation now.

@worriedmom1981 you got some really good advice in this thread. I am sure that all is going to be fine. Good luck!

The solid grounding in Maths and English also helps with other subjects such as sciences, languages and humanities. The OP's DD will have a flying start at secondary.

At my dd's school (academically selective secondary private school) they do not want focus on the grades. They want them to focus on what they learned and what are the next steps. We were told not to ask what they got on tests, but instead to ask what they learned. It seems they do not want them to feel any pressure. I assume different schools will do different things. I know at state primary, at least for my dc they do not want the dc to know they are being tested. I think now people are so scared of making dc feel pressured.