Religious schools discriminating against atheists

[MNersanonymous]

Dh and I are just having a discussion about this. The best state schools in our area are all religious and we, as atheists, feel discriminated against.

Could we take action against our local council under the religious discrimination legislation?!

Just curious really.

My "innate brainpower" was an attempt to be humorous, as it seems to me that it is hard to square religion with logical thinking.

but if there are no non-faith schools, surely they have to give you a place at a faith school? they can't not give you a place..

interested

It seems to be a big myth that faith schools are better because they have faith. Surely, they're better because they can SELECT. And in general their pupils will come from homes where the parents care enough about their education to have jumped through X number of hoops to get them there.

There's a big difference.

Incidentally, the secondary schools here, the faith schools are mediocre. There's one better comp (which is oversubscribed and unlikely to get into unless living close by) and one absolutely dire comp which is in special measures and has HUGE problems.

In theory, yes, grammar schools select on innate intelligence, thereby giving academic oppotunities to children of all social backgrounds. In practice, it is those kids (bright, yes) with parents who research the system, pay for coaching, move to the necessary catchment area etc... who dominate.

Well, of course selection comes into it. But I also think that schools work best when there is a connection between home and school. A set of shared values if you like. I think the big comprehensives with wide catchment areas struggle to create that, perhaps value diversity over a degree of uniformity.

But the OP stated that "all the best schools in her area" were faith. That's what's prompted a lot of the discussion here. Because, of course, if the faith schools were crap, she wouldn't give a stuff about being discriminated against/excluded from them.

Yes but rubberduck that's how it started, and quite often it IS to do with their more traditional approach

Now things are different I know, and a lot to do with property prices and so on..

The one thing I would say is.. that if you are prepared to jump through those hoops then you are probably also prepared to jump through hoops to support your children at home and to support the school through parent help, fundraising etc etc. All of which make a school better.

Dcs have been to three private schools and one faith school. The best school was the faith school with enormous parental involvement and support, and the second best was the "poorest" private school, where parents also stepped up to the plate.

I'd qualify all of this by saying: there are people who with the best will in the world will find it immensely difficult to support their children through school and to support the school because of their own circumstances. These are the people who really do need a good school to support THEM, and these are the people who lose out.

Yes, I'd like to see a human rights lawyer's argument on this one. Doesn't European (and UK) human rights law uphold freedom of religion? And doesn't that embrace the freedom to not believe?

The line that 'there's a reason why faith schools are better' is an interesting one in the light of the research announced today, showing religious schools merrily breaking the school admissions code so they can keep out anyone who does have the right job, right accent, right bank balance.

There was another study published recently that apparently showed church etc. schools do not reflect the local population - funnily enough they have far more middle class parents than you would expect if they were applying the admissions criteria fairly.

I know this will be a contentious theory but was curious so I asked my bf.
She is a primary school teacher, worked in quite a few schools and believes the faith schools are better because they have such a high percentage of children brought up in religions.
Not any specific one but she says the basic fact they are used to rules, commandments for good living, being well behaved in services etc. gives higher adherence to discipline and better results.

You could argue that 'jumping through hoops' is a good thing, or you could argue the reverse - that parents who are prepared to use every trick in the book are setting their children a very bad example, at least.

Well, the country is Church of England as a national faith or whatever... I know it seems outdated, but because less and less people are following the countrys religion, should they start to strip other things of their faith? That has really come out all wrong, I am not very good at putting across what I mean...

Oh yeah, it's great for children to be brought up with superstitious values. They'll do really well at school if they've learned in the home that women are inferior to men, homosexuals are an abomination and must be killed, and you mustn't make friends with anyone who doesn;t share your dumb superstition.

Blimey Madamez, what an interesting religion you follow!

That's one of the things that winds me up, LadyWaffle - CofE schools should be for all-comers! They should just be the local school that you go to if you live there. That's what my junior school was - no question of interviewing parents or having to provide letters from the vicar (obviously this was long before the big, fat lie of 'parental choice' was a twinkle in a politician's eye).

O MadameZ you saved me the trouble of typing it. I so agree with you.

So Madamez, you think that about religion, yet are you with those who say they still want their DCs to be able to go to a school that promotes all that twaddle? Or are you saying, ban them all?

Edam, I know what you mean. But firstly, ime most of the parents are genuinely of faith. In the cases of initial hypocrisy, the child won't know what the parent has done, and the hoop-jumping following the admission doesn't consist of trickery, it consists of going into school and helping, listening to children read, supervising extra curricular and so on. Really well-intentioned rather than trickery. Or you could argue the reverse -- pushy .

But they do end up getting better results, and everyone wants to go there. So everyone's pushy in a way.

Jackstini I don't think you should be embarrassed about what you said, I think there is some truth in it. Which looks like I'm saying non-faith parents don't live by rules, traditions etc. I'm not. I'm just saying almost all families of faith do. And people might not like those rules and traditions but they do like the schools they produce.

I'm saying Ban them All

oh for petes sake. Like nursery favour those with children ? And if you don't have children you are discriminated against ? Like a gay pride favours those who are gay ? And if you are straight , you are discriminated against ? Becasue jews pray and you are not jewish, so you are discriminated against ?
What a load of nonsense.
Every school has criteria. Some favour siblings. So, if this is your first child, you are discriminated aginast.
Well, yes, in which case I am, get over yourself.
And I don't live withing the catchment area ? So ... I am discrim
What a load of old tosh.
REALLY.

Madamez - I think that depends greatly on the religion and the people practicing it. Wasn't necessarily including fanatics...
I think she was more thinking of 'treat your neighbour as yourself, don't steal, don't lie, don't kill, respect parents etc.'

Oblomov
Have you read the thread?

Are you also discriminated against by private schools, becasue you don't have enough money to pay the fees ?

well done to nkf and clam.

and i further quote a post from bridie3 a while ago for all the pinko guardianistas up in arms here...

"a disenfranchised [impoverished, immigrant]* section of the population have created an institution which is under attack basically for its overall success."

• my additions/italics

I really agree that faith schools should not have that silly criteria (been reading my local Catholic schools criteria and it's stupid) but if the school happens to be a really good school, and they pick the (for example) 100 nearest applicants (which is fairest), some might just want to go (fair enough though) because it is a good school. But then that leaves , for example, people who really really want to send their children to a school that 'caters' for their faith having to not go to one. Now personally for me, I would find that sort of hard - religion to me is my life and it's inclusion into school life as important. So, the problem with that then is you are at loggerheads of why the school was first set up.

choccypig, yes I have. Sorry have i said something very offensive and missed the point ?