Religious schools discriminating against atheists

[MNersanonymous]

Dh and I are just having a discussion about this. The best state schools in our area are all religious and we, as atheists, feel discriminated against.

Could we take action against our local council under the religious discrimination legislation?!

Just curious really.

I thought someone might answer with that opinion Onebat. What is the solution then? Ban all religious schools? Make sure every catchment has a non-dom school in as well (not practical in rural areas)? Its a tough one.

Its an interesting dilema. I probably see it like that because I live in an area with lots of villages and each village has one school (some c of E some non-dom) but wherever you live you are only in catchment for one school so you do not really have any choice of schools at all.

Most people here seem have a very low opinion of faith schools.
And they want them to not 'discriminate', so that they will allow their child in.
Then when they get there , they will hate the "indoctrination" and etc, and so they will hate their child being there.
It doesn't make sense.

I can see why people would have a problem with that but I do not know what the solution is!

It's no fun popping out and popping back, I can't get my knees under this debate.

There must have been something in the first place which led to faith schools being better. The current hidden selection, or self-selection, is the RESULT, as they have become desirable schools.

But what is the germ of what makes them better? The hidden selection, the property prices, the jumping through hoops -- they KEEP them better, but what was it initially?

For my money, I think it's a more traditional approach to education.

Do you want the faith schools to be closed. Or funded themselves ?
You are forgetting that we live in a country where its our national religion.
Plus you are all saying as atheists we are discriminated against. But if you are not careful, then catholics and coe will be discriminated against.

Its a good point Oblomov. I suppose thats the point I am trying to make. What is the solution? How can you be "fair" to everyone, particurlaly as we are a society that has its fundamental roots in christianity.

Oblomov not everyone has a low opinion of faith schools, some of us just think that their admissions procedures are unfair and divisive.

A fair solution would be not to allow them to select by their own criteria.

(Did I say that before...)

But then they wouldn't be catholic or coe, would they. Becasue then the predominat % of the children wouldn't be catholic or coe. So how would that work?

And then, people would, say, complain, like me, that one of the criteria was siblings, and that that discriminates against me

Yes they would Oblamov because they would be run by Catholics/CoE'ers with that ethos. There were plenty of non-Catholics at the (very) Catholic school I went to - about 50/50 if I recall.

oh right, sorry. So non catholics do want to go to a catholic school then ?
See if I was an atheist, I wouldn't want that. By the way, I am not catholic. My dh is and as are all our family. And I am happy for ds to go to the catholic school.
Besides, I suppose I am a 'hooper', becasue it is an oustanding school. But if I was a real atheist and hated all the religion thing, I wouldn't want my child to go, no matter how good it was.

I hope Suebaroo doesn't mind if I quote her from a previous thread on this subject. It just seems so obvious and she said it so well:

"I've said before that my position is that state-funding should be allowed for faith schools because of the faith of the people that run them, with the altruistic aim of providing education for all, regardless of religion.

Anything else is an unjustifiable use of public funds for schools which deliberately religiously discriminate."

Now what could be wrong with that?

Where I live, faith schools aren't particularly better than non-faith schools. The problem is that there are so many of them that it is difficult to get into non-faith schools. Some faith schools just take the nearest pupils (although theoretically they could exclude people based on faith), some faith schools (funnily enough those nearest to the 2 schools with spare places) operate a very strict admissions system and you are unlikely to get a place unless you are a regular attender at the relevant church. The schools with spare places are coincidentally the schools in the poor parts of the borough.

Oblomov see my post of 14:39:54 on that subject.

I think I could reasonably call myself a Christian Atheist and I don't think I am alone in this.

Iorek, I have that quote again. I think I am not dissimilar.

Sorry, for the first part of your quote,. i don't feel the same about the second part.
But that is o.k.

I think the thing that distinguishes a Christian from another person is their belief in the Christian creed - things like Jesus being the son of God as opposed to just a man in history.

My Granny would have talked about immoral behaviour as being 'un-christian', but she didn't know many non-christians. She died in 1978. Hopefully we are a little more enlightened now.

I consider some 'Christian beliefs' e.g. discrimination against gay people, to be immoral, and I think my beliefs are backed up by the law. I am therefore more than a little confused about living in a 'Christian' country.

Having said all of that, I respect many Christians, I just don't see what relevance their beliefs have to state education.

Faith schools are the whipping boy here for other schools being so poor. The wrong problem is under attack.

I agree, it is not faith schools. It is an inherent problem in the schooling system.

I'm not sure anyone said we live in a Christian county (if so I must have missed that bit) just that the fundamental stuctures in this country have been developed from Christian beliefs and religion is still very entwined with the state. Our head of state is also head of the church, head bishops sit in the House of Lords, we can get married in church (rather than simply blessed), we still swear on the bible in court etc etc. Therefore, as most schools were started by the church and most people were christian when the state school system was set up, relgion has just become and part and parcel of the school system, right or wrong.

perhaps other schools are under-resourced, stuffit? perhaps they could use some of the cash that's funding faith schools..

in any case, I would ALWAYS have a problem with the state funding something that was religiously divisive.

Ok onebat, I really do see you point of view that religion has no place in education. If I was creating my own little country I would have all my schools as non-dom. The problem is we have inherited an educational system that has lots of church schools. So what do we do about them? Force them all to become non-dom? Close the ones that won't? Stripping church status will lead to reduced funding and some school closures, is that fair? Can you really see a government committing to these unpopular measures? I'm not saying it can't be done but I dont think there would be the political will to do it.

Playing, I think it is possible. Difficult, but possible.

I think a handover period of ten years or so, during which time state-funding of church schools is gradually reduced, and the saving put towards state education, would be doable.

In many cases, I imagine that the Church would hand over control of a school to the state, which could probably be effected in one move, over the summer holidays. Teachers, heads remain in place, but whom they report to shifts from diocese to state.

Extra money would be needed to buy the school from the church, but that would be a one-off capital expend.

Others become entirely voluntary-aided. Or private (a whole 'nother thread)

As far as political will is concerned, I agree, it's a problem. But not one that is impossible to overcome.

Presented as a snatching away of middle-class 'rights', it's a series of shrieking Daily Mail headlines.

Presented as a response to the increasing religious division in Britain... will still be Daily Mail headlines, but far less shrieky.

I did think of putting in (not financially) poor but that's what I meant onebat..

I meant faith schools are the whipping boy for bad schools that parents don't want to send their children to.