UK: Why are Struggling Students Advancing in Grades without Essential Skills? Share Your Insights! Teachers?

[Ross11]

Why do schools in England allow students who are struggling academically to progress to the next grade level without ensuring they have mastered essential skills? I've come across high school students who can't perform basic primary school-level math and struggle with proper writing. What are the implications of this policy, and what can be done to support these students? I'm curious to hear from both parents and teachers about their experiences and thoughts on this matter.

I take it you aren't English? We don't have Grades but Years, and it isn't a thing to hold pupils back.

You can't hold children back, everyone moves along to make room for the next cohort. Some children age 14 would be in a class with 7 year olds due to SEN issues. Teachers tailor work to the needs of the children in front of them.

I am not talking about the kids with SEN issues. Yes I had been in different countries but have been living in the Uk for the past 10 years.

It's not about "hold the pupils back", but it is very frustrating for the kids that are well below average, I mean some 12, 13 years old children can't even do very simple maths. And they are clearly very upset when doing their homeworks (already a lot easier than their classmates'), because they can't do them at all. They do have some extra helps in school, but they are clearly can't cope. None of them that I know have disability. Their parents just don't bother. (Trying to take them out of schools, tell them they don't have to do homework etc)

OP. Do you have any idea what it's like trying to get SEN diagnosis or support in this country?

I would (as a teacher and SEN parent) suggest that strugglers often do have needs (academic or other) that are not being met or even identified.

@Ross11 You really don't sound like you've been living in the UK for ten years. What is your first language? Because it clearly isn't English.

English is not my first language yes. I speak a few different ones. I have been living in different continents so have the chance to compare various educational systems. And I’m concerned about my relatives, that’s why I asked.

Thanks for your reply. The kids I know have been to doctors to check. I could see the problems are actually coming from the parents. However I would want to know whether school would do anything, because I can't intervene from my side. I am quite concerned since they would be struggling even just for normal daily stuff later.

You clearly don't understand how the English education system works. As pp have said, children are in year groups based on their ages. Teachers tailor work to the needs of the children in front of them. Like all public services in this country, the education system is under-resourced and this causes many problems.

Your latest posts sound like you are concerned about some specific children. We couldn't possibly say if the school 'would do anything' based on what you have written.

What @Riva5784 said.

Plus, Doctors (General Practitioners) don't diagnose general learning difficulties, or even specific learning difficulties. Doctors are trained medically, not in education.

In the U.K. there is no requirement to meet grade standards to move up.

No such thing as a grade, either, that's an American thing.

All students (with a very few exceptions) are taught in groups by their age.

This means that in any year group there is a big spread of abilities.

At secondary this is generally dealt with in two ways - mixed ability groups or setting (so students are grouped by ability).

The teacher is expected to be able to teach both mixed ability groups and sets.

I was a maths teacher for a long time, and every year there are students who have not mastered primary level maths by year 11. Most of them get grades 1 or 2 at gcse and then move onto vocational courses.

LOL at the idea that a quick check by a doctor might reliably identify any kind of additional needs.

My DD's issues weren't diagnosed until y12 when we paid for an assessment.
She had repeatedly bounced on and off the SEN support list at school.
When we saw the results of her assessment we were amazed she had coped as well as she had done until Covid.

(And what everyone else said).

You have said that you are concerned about relatives of yours. If this is the case there are a number of things you could do/suggest -

Firstly get your relative seen by an educational psychologist who can do various tests and will be able to point you in the direction of what if any learning difficulties your relative might have.

If you want this done privately it costs 800-1000 ish or at least it did a few years ago

From the report, you will be given many things to do which will help your relatives.

Depending on what the educational psychologist thinks, you should be able to get a tutor focussed on their particular learning need (dyslexia, etc). Again, this will cost money.

In terms of getting stuff done at school - if your relative is at secondary and struggles with primary level maths and cannot write then consider asking if there is a system where students can drop a language to do extra maths and English, this is a very common way of extra help being given.

If you’re “concerned about relatives” why didn’t you post a specific question about their situation and ask for advice? Instead you’ve written something very general that looks like you’re fishing for essay material or something. And what you’ve written doesn’t describe the UK system in any way at all.

Not to mention that the first post and OP's subsequent posts sound like they have been written by entirely different people.

Thanks for your replies. I have seen a few cases. My relative is one. That’s why I asked the question that way.
My 3 own kids were all in state primary schools until they joined high schools. So I know a bit.
We did offer to pay for the full checkups and also extra tutors if needed but the mother didn’t want to, saying her kids do not need to study anyway, although the grandparents also wanted to help.
It is difficult because the grandmother tried to teach the kids but it did not work because she’s not with them regularly.
Which group the schools are going to put the year 8/9 kids who can’t even do 3 timetable or 2 digits sum?
Tailor works in front of the children? No, the kids cry the time we saw them do homework because they don’t understand the questions!

How did you know it’s a quick check?

Thanks for your reply. It’s quite useful to hear from a teacher.
I do think it’s very difficult to have 1-2 teachers for a big class, trying to understand all the kids within a short time and catering for them.
In the cases I know, we couldn’t do much from the family side, that’s why I’m wondering about the school (not your faults)
In some other countries, they would let the kids stay back until they master that year (yes it can be very harsh). Or they take them out in small groups setting with very similar ability and build up from there.

You say the kids are 'below average' and therefore answer your own question. Kids come in a huge range.

For some, the education system is a failure and does not serve them well. There is an obsession in the UK with passing exams and grades that are unachievable for a good percentage of the population. The ideal situation is to have a different pathway. There are so many things that could be done in the UK that don't get done. I have been teaching 24 years and it's worse than ever.

I have taught plenty of kids who were year 8/9 and couldn't remember times tables and do two digit sums.

They would normally be bottom set so would have fewer students and one teacher.

As calculators are allowed in two of the three gcse exams we would focus on learning to use those. Also useful in adult life.

These students typically go on to get grade 1 or grade 2 at gcse and then move on to college to do a vocational course.

Some colleges will offer a skills for life course if the student is sufficiently unable to manage their own life.

I agree with you some different pathways. People can do various jobs, not everyone has to do college degrees. However I think primary maths is still fundamental. If they go to a shop, they should be able to know how much changes they’re going to get back etc.
There are some many goods things about the educational system here, this is the one that I feel quite disappointed.
Again, other parts of the world, the parents play an important roles in helping the kids too.

A lot of people in the U.K. don't have good maths or English skills.

Half the population, and admittedly this will be skewed towards older people only have the maths skills equivalent to primary school.

www.ukfinance.org.uk/blogs/essentials-numeracy#:~:text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%20as,lost%20opportunities%2C%20income%20and%20productivity.

About 5 per cent of gcse grades are a grade 1 (lowest possible) or ungraded, so about 5 percent of 16 year olds have maths skills below that if the end of primary.

Say there are 700,000, that's 35,000 sixteen year olds each year leaving school with maths skills lower than the end of primary.

Thanks for your reply. It’s sad to know the numbers.

Honestly I agree somewhat. Some children leave primary without the required skills in English and Maths. Suddenly at secondary they are expected to learn history, geography, RE. French, computing, DT, art, PE, science and study literature as well as doing maths and English often in large mixed ability groups moving from subject to subject every hour. Lacking the foundational skills this is likely to make very little sense to them and they become switched off. There isn't that much timetabled time to focus on the skills they actually need.

Also, some schools are just not very good. Mumsnet is full of threads about how to get DC places in desirable schools and keep them out of bad schools.

If children have personal/family/social problems, they will not come to school ready to learn. What schools are able to do to help them will vary enormously.

If your relatives think their children don't need to study, won't accept family help and leave them crying over homework, there is only so much a school would be able to do. Even a very good school, which theirs may not be.