11+- do we go all out for it or not? - advice and words of wisdom appreciated!

[glitterball]

ds1 is in year 5. he is an august baby and the youngest but one of his entire year. i believe he is clever - his teachers regularly make comments about how well he does at school and how they have no concerns about him; they have however when directly questioned refused to tell me whether he is above the level of his age, top of his class (tho i am told by ds & his friends he is!) or indeed whether or not he has a hope in hell of passing the 11+!

i should add his primary is locally very well thought of, it gets top marks in sats and has recently got an ofstead outstanding however it seems to have a low pass rate for 11+ (about 10% - but i know little about 11+ so for all i know that is good!)

the dilemma is that i had initally thought we should push the 11+ i would get a tutor, and we would cram poor ds until he passed! i want ds to go to a mixed school and there is an excellent mixed grammar about a 25 min walk from our house.

however i then began to wonder if it was the right thing; i grew up in a non grammar area and went to the local comp (because it was the only school i could walk to and my parents didnt want me getting the bus to school on my own age 11!) which was rubbish but in spite of it i did well at gcse, then transferred to a very good school for a level and got to the uni of my choice. i loved always being top of all my classes (as a result university came as a shock!!) ds is simlarly used to being the 'clever' one at school & i just worry whether he would do well at a grammar if he was middle or even bottom of class, or better at a worse school where he stood out more?

there is a mixed comp at the top of our road, most of ds friends will end up there as they are not expecting to pass or even take the 11+, but it is quite rough and am just not sure its right for him.

so we are now halfway through year 5, 11+ is 6 months off, we have no tutor, and i dont know whether to get one or not, which school to choose, and i cant shake the feeling that if i make the wrong decision it could have major consequences!........

I would go to Smiths and buy a packet of past papers - making sure that they are the ones you actually do in your areas (they differ quite widely - some areas do multiple choice for example). Then I would sit down with your ds and let him have a go. Don't time him or put him under any sort of stress - just see how he gets on. That will give you some sort of idea of where he's at.

If he does reasonably well, I would sign up to one of the 11+ practice sites (I can do a link to the one we used if you like) and just do a little practice every day over the summer holidays. If he's bright then he shouldn't need a tutor - but he will need practice in jumping through the particular hoops the exam asks for.

It's also important to think about where he wants to go. Good high schools in grammar school areas normally have grammar streams and children can do very well in them. Think about facilities and activities (my dd's grammar school has fabulous music for example and is the right school (so far) for her regardless of of its grammar-ness or otherwise).

Could go on for ages on this subject (did it
last year) Happy to "chat"!

You have to look at the schools really and see which ones you like. If it's the grammar school, I wouldn't worry that friends are going to a different school, children adapt very quickly.

I would just say it's not as hard as you think to pass the 11+. It's about practise, like anything else, so if that's what he wants, start with some low-key work asap. The benefit of a tutor is that they will ensure you have seen all possible types of question that usually come up and know how to tackle that type, but with the right materials you could do it yourself (provided your child will listen to you!!).

What area are you in? They are talking about setting the exam in September instead of January here in Kent, but we haven't been told anything definite (which is a pain).

Problem is, if you find a good tutor, the chances are that he/she has been fully booked for years in advance. You may be better off buying the practice papers and practising at home.

I honestly don't think you need a tutor. There is research somewhere (I'll try and find it) that says that after 4 hours, the returns on tutoring plummet. This seems to me to indicate that it's familiarization with the papers that's essential, rather than the intense tutoring that some people go in for.

There is also the consideration that a very tutored child might find it hard in the quite academic atmosphere of grammar school once they get there.

Would agree with seeker re diminishing returns - if it's vr/non vr tutoring she's talking about. You might as well just go and buy a few books and see how ds does with them. With maths/english I'm sure a tutor could be more helpful than 4 hours of extra benefit, but then again, if you've been tutored and taught extra to pass an exam, you could well then struggle to keep up. It depends on quite how academic the grammar school is. Some are more high powered than others.

Basically if your ds is doing well at school (as it seems), if you consider him quick and articulate, then he should be grammar school material and it would do no harm to let him have a go at some practice papers.

There is a very good website - Elevenplusexams.co.uk which has lots of resources (including on-line and downloadable) and lively forum with lots of advice on which areas use which format of tests, so ou can easily see what is required for our local grammar. Why not aim high? You have a good fallback, so not life or death vital for him to pass, but if he likes learning, worth a punt. No necessary to get a tutor, but feintiely necesary to familiarise him with the type of questions and format he is likely to see.

You don't need a tutor - the important thing, as others have said, is to make sure your DS1 is familiar with the question types. You can buy last year's papers - but do not do let him try those until nearer the exam and when he has already practiced the type of questions from books and practice papers. For Verbal Reasoning Susan J Daughtrey's book

www.amazon.co.uk/Verbal-Reasoning-Further-Practice-Exercises/dp/1898696810/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 &s=books&qid=1205074665&sr=1-1

is excellent. It gives ten minute practice exercises for each of the 35 types of verbal reasoning questions commonly used.

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk has already been recommended. I agree it is a great resource.

I've just seen this but haven't had time to read through all the answers but you really really sound like you live round the corner to me. My dd1 is only in yr3 so we don't have this as an issue yet..... So at the moment my thoughts are similar to yours but I suppose at an earlier stage. I get the immpression that many children are taught how to do the 11+ papers so that its no longer based purely on whether your child is capable of the 11+ so I would agree with giving him practice papers. As for tutors I think that should be based on whether or not he works well with you. I work well with my daughter on English but Maths is a nightmare. She's looking for a fight before we've even looked at the home work and the moment she can't do something its tears and tantrums that drive me insane yet when we do her English home together its calm and fun. So if I were in your shoes I'd get a maths tutor but do the English myself.

As for whether or not your child should go to grammar I think its more about where their personality would fit in. My dd1 is a real book worm and already in her juniors she is being called names. Up until this point I wasn't sure I'd even bother considering grammar at all as both dh and I did perfectly well at our secondaries etc and I don't really like the idea of tuition because of the additional workload on a child who should really be playing. BUT I also want her to fit in and I'm hoping that on the whole more book worm types will go to grammar with whom she can make friends than the local comp.

HTH

DS1 was badly bullied at primary and the main reason for this was that he was very bright. Attending a grammar means that this doesn't happen - although some of the very studious (nerdy boffs, apparently) boys do still get a bit of stick.

It's very useful to visit all the schools you might be considering. Although if you go in October when they have all the open days and evenings, that's a little late to be thinking about getting a tutor if you really like the grammar! You can always contact the schools individually and ask to visit now. Most will oblige.