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Original poster

MATH - Is about spotting patterns. Not learning Times Tables. Opine.

162 replies

HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 06:40

MATH - Maths is not about learning times tables, it’s about spotting patterns in everything we experience and using them to plan and invent.

From a 7 year old Guardian article,
Reckon you were born without a brain for maths? Highly unlikely | Students | The Guardian

Would you recount your experiences where you or your loved ones were traumatised by Math.

Reckon you were born without a brain for maths? Highly unlikely

Maths is not about learning times tables, it’s about spotting patterns in everything we experience and using them to plan and invent

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/mar/26/reckon-you-were-born-without-a-brain-for-maths-highly-unlikely

OP posts:
Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 07:53

beeswain · 30/09/2023 07:50

The first sign thst ds was a gifted Mathematician wsd his ability to recognise patterns....in times tables! Age 3 he worked out that you could count in 2's 3's 4's etc and was very excited by this.
He is now a Maths student at Oxbridge and had very strong views that Maths is poorly taught at primary ( the curriculum being the problem rather than individual teachers) and more children would enjoy it and be better at it if the primary curriculum was changed.

Hats off to your son. Oxford or Cambridge?

Agree, the method of teaching needs some slight alteration.

OP posts:
sorrynotathome · 30/09/2023 07:53

I didn’t do times tables at primary school in the 1970s but I got an A at O-level and am better than average at mathS.

beeswain · 30/09/2023 07:54

@RecycleMePlease makes a great point about problem solving, that is exactly one of ds's points, Maths skills are about problem solving and children need to he taught how not to he frustrated when the answer doesn't come.

Dontcallmescarface · 30/09/2023 07:54

I can't see any of this pattern that people are talking about. I just see numbers, but then I have always struggled with maths and even now have no idea how to do most of it.

Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 07:54

toomuchfaster · 30/09/2023 07:19

Learning times tables is pattern spotting, such lazy journalists!

No, it isn't.

Spotting patterns would be to show the times tables and see if they spot any patterns. And their brain thus may get wired in a manner, which avoids rote learning.

OP posts:
Hercisback · 30/09/2023 07:54
  1. They do learn tables.
  1. Quick recall of tables helps for more efficient pattern spotting as the MATHS gets more difficult. Tables are literally patterns.
BlueIgIoo · 30/09/2023 07:55

Lots of low ability children really struggle to see patterns in maths.

Badbadbunny · 30/09/2023 07:55

Times tables (and prime numbers) are pretty much essential for all other areas of Maths. Try solving or simplifying an equation without knowing them - much harder and takes a lot longer. I've never understood why people are so against learning them. It's not rocket science to rote-learn them. My only concession would be not to go up to 12 (as we did back in the 70s) at an early age - just go to 9 (9 is a massively important number, especially for looking at "spotting patterns" and also error checking (a transposed number always divides by 9, i.e. if you have a difference of 27, it's almost certainly going to be a number written down wrongly, i.e. 114 instead of 144 - difference 27 and if you know your 9 times table, you can see instantly it divides by 9!

Same with prime numbers, apparently these days you're taught the equation to tell you what the prime numbers are, which is a hard equation (for young pupils) - why not go back to how I was taught which was rote learning the first 10 or so prime numbers - that covers 99% of the times when you need to know them - if you want to know a bigger prime number, then use the equation (or your smart phone!).

All this "anti" times table angst really annoys me. If so many people find it too hard to learn a few numbers, they're being taught wrongly. Are teachers explaining the patterns or why they are useful and giving examples (i.e. being taught tables alongside simple equations) - I suspect not, in which case, I can see why they're boring to learn if there's no context nor use being given. Learning anything with no context/background is always going to be harder and more boring than learning something that means something and where you can see a use.

Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 07:55

sorrynotathome · 30/09/2023 07:53

I didn’t do times tables at primary school in the 1970s but I got an A at O-level and am better than average at mathS.

I was not around in the 1970's, were Times Tables not a "Requirement"?

Was Math taught in a more relaxed manner than now?

OP posts:
Hercisback · 30/09/2023 07:57

OP it's MATHS. Not math.

Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 07:57

Badbadbunny · 30/09/2023 07:55

Times tables (and prime numbers) are pretty much essential for all other areas of Maths. Try solving or simplifying an equation without knowing them - much harder and takes a lot longer. I've never understood why people are so against learning them. It's not rocket science to rote-learn them. My only concession would be not to go up to 12 (as we did back in the 70s) at an early age - just go to 9 (9 is a massively important number, especially for looking at "spotting patterns" and also error checking (a transposed number always divides by 9, i.e. if you have a difference of 27, it's almost certainly going to be a number written down wrongly, i.e. 114 instead of 144 - difference 27 and if you know your 9 times table, you can see instantly it divides by 9!

Same with prime numbers, apparently these days you're taught the equation to tell you what the prime numbers are, which is a hard equation (for young pupils) - why not go back to how I was taught which was rote learning the first 10 or so prime numbers - that covers 99% of the times when you need to know them - if you want to know a bigger prime number, then use the equation (or your smart phone!).

All this "anti" times table angst really annoys me. If so many people find it too hard to learn a few numbers, they're being taught wrongly. Are teachers explaining the patterns or why they are useful and giving examples (i.e. being taught tables alongside simple equations) - I suspect not, in which case, I can see why they're boring to learn if there's no context nor use being given. Learning anything with no context/background is always going to be harder and more boring than learning something that means something and where you can see a use.

"they're boring to learn if there's no context nor use being given. Learning anything with no context/background is always going to be harder and more boring than learning something that means something and where you can see a use."

Isn't this the core of the problem. Math without context and on top being made to rote learn is a recipe for Subject Hate?

OP posts:
BlueIgIoo · 30/09/2023 07:57

husbandcallsmepickle · 30/09/2023 07:32

Children don't actually learn their times tables any more.

Why did you write this if you clearly have no idea what primary children learn? There is probably more focus on times tables now than there has been in the past 30 years, given all pupils in England sit an online test with 6 seconds per question when they are 8 or 9 years old.

Hercisback · 30/09/2023 07:58

Teachers do teach the patterns, how the tables are made, spend ages drawing them out, using arrays etc.

However there comes a point whee "just bloody learn them" needs to happen.

Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 07:58

Hercisback · 30/09/2023 07:57

OP it's MATHS. Not math.

Same. Math or Maths. Endless debates ensue in intellectual circles about this.

OP posts:
Badbadbunny · 30/09/2023 07:58

BlueIgIoo · 30/09/2023 07:55

Lots of low ability children really struggle to see patterns in maths.

Perhaps it's because they've not been taught how to look for them, or havn't learnt the basics like tables and prime numbers? Our teaching of Maths in the UK has been pretty abysmal for decades.

Apparently primary teachers don't need to even have an A level in Maths, and don't need a high grade at GCSE, so aren't really the best people to teach Maths to primary pupils at the earliest ages where they should be learning Maths. If a primary teacher doesn't know their times tables themselves, I can't imagine how they can be effective in trying to teach them to their pupils! Probably give out the "I can't do Maths, me" vibe!

Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 07:59

Hercisback · 30/09/2023 07:58

Teachers do teach the patterns, how the tables are made, spend ages drawing them out, using arrays etc.

However there comes a point whee "just bloody learn them" needs to happen.

Then we end up with rote learning.

Should the exams instead focus on spotting patterns behind which hide Times Tables?

OP posts:
Dontcallmescarface · 30/09/2023 08:00

BlueIgIoo · 30/09/2023 07:55

Lots of low ability children really struggle to see patterns in maths.

I have 4 A levels and an OU degree....still can't see the patterns in maths though.

Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 08:00

BlueIgIoo · 30/09/2023 07:57

Why did you write this if you clearly have no idea what primary children learn? There is probably more focus on times tables now than there has been in the past 30 years, given all pupils in England sit an online test with 6 seconds per question when they are 8 or 9 years old.

Show quote history

I too feel that the emphasis on Times Tables in today's schooling is greater than 4 decades ago. As another poster has pointed out.

OP posts:
Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 08:02

Dontcallmescarface · 30/09/2023 08:00

I have 4 A levels and an OU degree....still can't see the patterns in maths though.

Show quote history

OU=Open University?

Patterns in numbers should be more apt.

OP posts:
TorroFerney · 30/09/2023 08:02

HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 07:58

Same. Math or Maths. Endless debates ensue in intellectual circles about this.

Show quote history

This is not a debate , we are telling you it’s maths!

toomuchfaster · 30/09/2023 08:03

HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 07:54

No, it isn't.

Spotting patterns would be to show the times tables and see if they spot any patterns. And their brain thus may get wired in a manner, which avoids rote learning.

Show quote history

This what they do!!! The tables are shown, discussed, pulled apart and then practiced until fluent. Just like learning a language. Just because you were taught in a bad way for you many years ago, doesn't mean things haven't moved on.

sorrynotathome · 30/09/2023 08:03

HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 07:55

I was not around in the 1970's, were Times Tables not a "Requirement"?

Was Math taught in a more relaxed manner than now?

Show quote history

There wasn’t a national curriculum as such. I lived in London and things were changing eg grammar schools had already been scrapped. I didn’t learn English grammar either but I’m more literate than most people because I read voraciously. Primary school was pretty relaxed (no homework ever) but I guess secondary school levelled us up!

Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 30/09/2023 08:04

BlueIgIoo · 30/09/2023 07:55

Lots of low ability children really struggle to see patterns in maths.

Where I am, I feel the "low ability children" excel the "high resource richer children"

OP posts:
sorrynotathome · 30/09/2023 08:04

MATHS ffs!

RoseAndRose · 30/09/2023 08:04

OP's going to hate it when she finds out number bonds are also taught by rote