VAT on private school fees

[user1486984759]

So I’m going to get crucified for this, BUT, let me get this straight:

• We pay 45% tax, thereby funding state schools
• We do not get any benefits, and those that do get priority when it comes to state school admissions
• We scrimp and save from what’s left after paying 45% tax to pay for our kids’ education
• And now the state is going to add 20% to our school fees to fund state schools
• So we pay the most to fund state schools, but when it comes to state school admissions, we are last in line

How is this fair?

It seems that in this country, the best places to be are (1) a non-dom billionaire, or (2) someone who doesn’t pay taxes, gets all the benefits, and gets priority in state school admissions. The hard working PAYE earners are screwed by parties from left, right and center.

Again with the sweeping statements that ALL private schools rely on tutors. No independent tutors at DDs school.
Also why do you care? If parents are happy to pay for fees + tutoring why should you care? It is their money to spend how they wish. If they are happy to be swindled then that's up to them.
The whole reason we chose private is to get out of the restrictive control of the National Curriculum and Ofsted. I work in FE and know the very limited purpose of Ofsted. I trust my own judgement and the results of the private school to judge how they deliver my DDs education.

Fine. Instead of taxing them more so they move to state let them pay twice.

The children already in state schools won’t be affected, but those applying in future will be. I would think that most private school parents will struggle through until the next natural break point in education. There will be increased applications at 4, 11 and 16 from parents who would otherwise have gone private. It’s already happening. There have been increased applications from our local prep to the nearest grammar over the last couple of years, a school which normally gets every child through the 11+ grammar exam without too much trouble. Those children are taking places which would otherwise have been available to other children. Private schools, on the whole, get better GCSE results for whatever reason (as an average), so those children are more likely to be offered places in selective state sixth forms. Private school parents can generally afford higher house prices so can move within catchment of desirable state schools. Those who think that private school parents will just settle for their nearest underperforming comp are deluded.

So you’ve carried out a poll of each parent at the school your child attends to find out how many pay for private tutors. As you say- Bollocks!

If you don’t care about your children underachieving academically I n exchange for fancy uniforms and clout then fill your boots.

It doesn’t bother me if people waste their money on sub-par education from schools that aren’t held to the same high standards as state.

What does bother me a lot is people thinking that my state school colleagues are somehow worse at their jobs than private school teachers when it is absolute opposite. Indi teachers often dont even have teaching degrees which is another way the schools can pay staff peanuts to pay for their match teas and glossy prospectuses.

We all went to the same polys to get our teaching certificates, we all drink cheap coffee and stale custard creams in the staff room and moan about our days.

The quality of teaching is only one part of the equation to consider.

I strongly suspect if the average state school teacher swapped places with the average private school teacher the state school teachers would achieve better outcomes for the children they teach and vice versa.

The fact is that it is easier to teach in a private school environment for many obvious reasons. That is what parents pay for.

Small classes, minimal disruption and engaged parents all make it easier.

I’m happy to pay to avoid all the crap that goes with many state schools. It is cheaper than moving house.

@Bubblingblack no of course I haven't but we don't live in London and it isn't a massively academic selective school. A lot of kids (boys especially) attend for the sports (multiple ex-England Rugby players) so their aim isn't academic. That being said, the school outperforms the local state secondary at GCSEs but lags behind at A-levels.
You are making sweeping assumptions that no teachers in private schools have teaching qualifications. At DDs school they are all QTS + some Masters and PhD in their chosen subjects. I much prefer that to the local state where the Music teacher also covers French and lower set Maths.
Your prejudices are very clear!

I’m confused why you’re happy to work in such an apparently awful school, when your previous state school had much better teaching and standards.

The independent schools mark their own homework, make up their own assessment systems

Independent schools are inspected just as state schools are. Failing independent schools are flagged up by inspections. As for making up their own assessment systems, all the private primaries I know use national assessment systems (CAT4, PIRA, PUMA etc). As for secondaries, the majority of schools sit GCSEs and A levels, not assessment systems they’ve made up.

rely heavily on people paying for their children to have tutors on evenings and weekends

This is often wheeled out on Mumsnet. It’s not something I recognise. Tutored children are in the minority in the private schools I have experience of. Where does this extra time for tutoring in the evenings and weekends come from? Most children at private schools, especially at secondary, have very long days, and often have Saturday lessons or fixtures. They simply don’t have time for extra tuition on top of prep and extra curricular activities.

Obviously there are some poorly performing private schools, but to suggest that they’re all awful is ludicrous.

@Bubblingblack - unfortunately I know a LOT of teachers in both private and state, and the general consensus is the opposite of yours.

…rely heavily on people paying for their children to have tutors on evenings and weekends to make up for their flabby systems.

This is a joke, right? Tutoring is rife among parents in the state system. Whether for 11+ or for public exams or Oxbridge entry or just keeping ahead, the army of tutors is mostly servicing MC parents who have children in state education, whether they have no choice or whether they opt for state as a bit of Duraglit for the progressive halo.

Indi teachers often dont even have teaching degrees

I don’t have the figures, but I’m not convinced that private school teachers “often” don’t have teaching degrees. However, I’d prefer a teacher with, for example, practical career experience in a science subject teaching my children science, rather than a PE teacher who technically “qualified” as a teacher at the local poly teaching science. This often happens in state schools. There have been plenty of threads about this in the past. Decent private schools have specialist subject teachers who stick to their subject, often Oxbridge or Russell Group educated.

Exactly. How many posts have there been about parents not paying private school fees but “topping up” with tutors?! Lots!

Only around half of independent schools are charities.

The info piece I posted from the UK law firm was published after the Nuffield Health judgment - either they didn’t take into account the Nuffield judgment or they think the Scottish precedent can be leveraged.

Private schools, on the whole, get better GCSE results for whatever reason

Can you think of a reason? Could it possibly be the same reason that a high proportion of COWI graduates have first class degrees?

IME not only are the large majority of private school teachers qualified, but loads of them have also worked in the state sector - so you're talking about the same people.

I think there are lots of reasons. Parental involvement, smaller classes, less disruption in classes, tailored education with more options so it’s easier to choose subjects where pupils’ strengths lie, more help where pupils struggle etc.

You forgot selection.

Not all private schools are academically selective though. Admittedly that plays some part, in the same way that state grammars tend to get better results. It’s not the only reason though. I know of an example in one area where a non selective state school beats the selective state grammar, and another where a non selective private beats a selective state school.

But selection at 7 / 11 / 13 is a huge factor, on top of small classes and intensive teaching and shed loads of homework.

DDs school is only partially selective ie entrance exam but nothing an 'average' Yr 6 couldn't pass (so DC who are scoring 100+ in SATS rather than 11+ standard). Still comes out with better GCSEs than local state so that must be down to: smaller class sizes, greater parental engagement and a calmer learning environment.

on top of small classes and intensive teaching and shed loads of homework.

Yes, it’s not just about selection. It’s also untrue that all private schools get “shed loads of homework”. One local prep is non selective at 4, sets minimal homework and yet still hugely outperforms all local state schools in the 11+ state grammar exams.

More anecdata - our local independent secondaries were selective and set enormous amounts of homework.

They didn’t outperform our state secondary.

One local prep is non selective at 4

Being ‘selective’ at age 4 is somewhat ridiculous. Unless you’re talking about the depth of parent’s pockets.

I thought a lot of the ire was based on advantage. If there’s none then great let people pay twice and relieve burden on the state

I think we are agreeing with each other! It’s impossible to generalise, which is what my original comment said.

Wow. You just couldn’t be more wrong!

Teachers Oxbridge/ Russell Group educated! Hilarious!

If your child had been to Oxbridge and ended up working in a school (which is essentially a mahogany-clad pyramid scheme) for peanuts, you’d be wondering what you’d invested all your money into their education for!

The Independent sector don’t have to employ people with qualified teacher status or indeed any teaching qualifications whatsoever.

There is lot more to being, for example, a biology teacher than having a degree in biology; Classroom management, assessment tracking, planning based on question level analysis, dealing with parents, understanding and catering for SEN to name a few things.

Over time you’ll see that RS teachers become Games teachers who then become head of maths and then pre-prep teachers based simply on staff leaving and Ind schools shuffling people around.

As for inspections, can assure you from the inside that the process is completely different. Inspectors don’t even give a one word rating as Ofsted do for state schools. Inspections can’t be failed and are awarded nothing more than a complimentary superlative and a few recommendations for improved practice. Nowhere near the rigour and scrutiny state schools deal with. Result=lazy, coasting teachers with poor subject knowledge and outdated pedagogy who take credit for the outcomes of children whose usually well-educated parents are doing all of the leg work anyway!

Stats are kept impressive because children who won’t make the grade are prior to exam years, ‘moved on’ discretely to somewhere that will ‘better suit their needs’.

If your children are thriving, you should give yourself most of the credit for that and stop putting their school on a pedestal.

It’s farcical but if you’re happy to pay for it- enjoy!