VAT on private school fees

[user1486984759]

So I’m going to get crucified for this, BUT, let me get this straight:

• We pay 45% tax, thereby funding state schools
• We do not get any benefits, and those that do get priority when it comes to state school admissions
• We scrimp and save from what’s left after paying 45% tax to pay for our kids’ education
• And now the state is going to add 20% to our school fees to fund state schools
• So we pay the most to fund state schools, but when it comes to state school admissions, we are last in line

How is this fair?

It seems that in this country, the best places to be are (1) a non-dom billionaire, or (2) someone who doesn’t pay taxes, gets all the benefits, and gets priority in state school admissions. The hard working PAYE earners are screwed by parties from left, right and center.

Yeah people moving for catchment area is very common and sometimes it may not be obvious as they have been there for a while and didn’t just move before secondary .

Many decide they wanted their child in specific secondary school so buy a house within that area before their kids was even born or when their kids were young.

Yup. And round me many of the parents who buy in for the local school are vocal opponents of selection or private.

I'm a bit baffled as to how sending more kids to state improves state schools?

I was sent to state, achieved the highest GCSE grades in its history at that point, along with about half a dozen other lower middle class kids. In order to try to improve the school my mum became a parent governor.
I achieved despite the school and not because of it. I was truly miserable in a culture of being clever not being cool (the kids) and a C grade being the target (the teachers).

So what did my experience achieve? Has education improved because of what I went through?Err no. I'd have been better off going for a scholarship at the local private school.

I'm not putting my kids through that, I'm privately educating my kids and 4/5 of the other top graders from my old school have chosen the same thing.

I guess this all depends where you live and who you know. I live in a city where every middle class life and decision appears to be ruled by catchment areas. It is a top property search criterion. Every trick in the book is discussed. There is a hotline for dobbing in catchment fraudsters. I doubt this is all that unusual for a city and most of the population live in cities. I’m sure in rural areas of course things are very different, and I’m sure different towns and cities are not identical in this.

Yes, good point - I’ve noticed this too! They’ll also likely to be happy to use private tutors or using their work connections to get their kids highly sought after internships when they’re older all the while decrying the existence of private schools.

Your impression of what is common and normal depends on who you know, and may or may not reflect the general reality. That’s what I mean.

This probably also influences one’s own behaviour. Catchment anxiety does look quite contagious to me.

Catchment anxiety is definitely contagious and definitely exists in middle class people who work in London and can commute. There’s no interest in “good enough” schools and a whole lot of angst about a tiny number of schools in specific places and whether and how to get ones children into them. It is patently over the top, keeping up with the Jones’s behaviour. Yes, most people are very invested in ensuring their children get a good education, but some people take it a step further and don’t just want a good education, they want the reassurance that people like them all agree it must be a good education, because that is where the children of people like them all go. There is a fear of not going along with the consensus of your tiny group. Imvho.

@Walkaround I definitely witnessed this.

I can’t see it decreasing when 20% causes an extra shift to stare

@newhere24 Labour have said that the VAT increase won’t apply to special needs schools

I agree re: buying houses by desirable schools - it's effectively putting the cost of the fees onto the mortgage instead. Very common here too - hoping to save on primary fees and only pay for secondary (the reverse can be true in grammar school areas).

It creates 'school ghettos' where only poor and disadvantaged kids go to certain schools and others are bursting with middle class kids and parents donating to pay for additional classroom assistants and equipment.

I don't think that either a) taxing private schools or b) ending private schools improves education for all.

I do think that education needs massive investment and has been underfunded forever, particularly so under the Tories. We need to invest to improve standards, improve culture, improve opportunity.
We need to tax wealth - I'd much rather see the likes of Michelle Mone paying her fair share than middle class parents making choices for their kids.

I just can’t why a decreasing state roll isn’t a chance to keep funding the same but more per pupil

Instead of causing influx to state

The VAT imposed will also impact certain university courses disproportionately, numbers for Classics, Modern Languages, English and History degrees will go down even further which is not great news as some of those courses are cheaper to run then Science, Tech and Medicine type courses.
There is far more language and classics teaching in private schools.

The reason I chose specific grammars for my DC is because I wanted them to do French and German plus Latin for GCSEs as well as triple science, higher Maths and the Further Maths GCSE (if they got into the higher sets) plus history and geography. Ok one chose computer science and the other music instead of geography, but I wanted them to have that choice. Not many comps will offer those kind of choices. So I think it is really wrong to decrease people’s choices because of some ideology. Therefore, I have sympathy with private school parents because I can see where this is heading.

Languages, philosophy, history etc are important subjects to me and there is a reason countries like China want everyone studying tech and sciences/Maths at uni. Whilst I like the fair parts of leftie principles and protecting the vulnerable, I am vehemently opposed to the state control/telling you how to think bit. So I am very disappointed in Keir Starmer and have emailed all my reasons. Anyone else should do the same.

I am also annoyed that the NHS is wasting so much money on nurses and doctors being “contracted” back at huge cost by private companies because I know some people personally who have made a fortune out of this. People need to open their eyes. It is an admin behemoth nightmare. And I do believe in the concept of a free at the point of delivery for all service but not run like this where the “system” loses sight of the patient.

@Araminta1003 the reasons you cite are the exact reasons why we chose private. We aren't in a grammar area so it was either state comp with: either History OR Geography at GCSE, only French as an MFL with no other options etc.
The state curriculum is so narrow and that has been further worsened with the teacher recruitment and retention crisis.

No..Not the same people at all. The Vote Leave campaign was run by right wing politicians and Labour's emergent policy on private schools is being penned by left wing politicians.

Do you know much about UK politics?

Whilst I like the fair parts of leftie principles and protecting the vulnerable, I am vehemently opposed to the state control/telling you how to think bit.

Hear, hear! @Araminta1003

It creates 'school ghettos' where only poor and disadvantaged kids go to certain schools and others are bursting with middle class kids and parents donating to pay for additional classroom assistants and equipment.

In our area you cannot donate to pay for extra staff, and schools in deprived areas get additional funding as do their pupils. So the ‘middle class’ schools are bursting with kids with class sizes topping the maximum, libraries/art/computing spaces turned into extra classrooms and next to no PSAs to support those with SEN. Conversely in deprived area schools have much smaller class sizes, many more PSAs, library spaces, art and quiet spaces and breakfast clubs. The difficulties faced by those schools are community based or expectations of education by the school and pupils, not funding.

Brexit was negotiated (badly) by a right wing (by UK standards) government. But to suggest support for Brexit was a right wing issue is exactly why Brexit was negotiated by a Conservative Government - the left did not like to listen to their own Brexit supporters. There are too many left politicians who think they know what their supporters should think rather than what they actually think.

My OH works 2 jobs, I work FT. We have one 9 yr old family car with 150k miles and went camping for a week as our main holiday so that we can afford school fees. Thats what I mean by scrimping and saving.

We also have a high performing comp on our doorstep but it is quite difficult to stay one for Sixth Form and I worry that they are going to up the GCSE required grades further (being a successful academy) and the ex private school kids are going to be at an advantage getting in with their better GCSE grades.
It is an issue even for specific subjects you want to study - for example, if you want to get into the Further Maths sets the places are limited due to the massive shortage of Maths teachers! People rubbing their hands in glee need to start appreciating the consequences of this policy on their own children too, rather than just assuming it is not going to affect them.

My ready maths looks like an extra £1bn* raised from VAT on school fees equates to around £98 per state pupil funding per year (from £7460 to around £7560)...I'll defer to somebody from the education sector to determine if this is pivotal?

The reality is it will be much less than £1bn raised due to VAT claims on various goods and services