PGCE at Durham

[Penguin7208]

Hello everyone,

My DS is considering his options for teacher training providers and one of the ones he is looking at is Durham University. If you didn't know, the DfE took their ability to award QTS away from them, however, they have partnered with Newcastle University so Durham will do the PGCE part and Newcastle will do all the stuff required for the QTS.

He is slightly concerned about how this will be run or perceived by employers. As he would be starting in 2024, so the first year through this new system, is it possible this may end up being a disorganised mess? Are schools going to care that Durham ran the PGCE despite not being able to offer QTS?

Personally, it seems to be a bit like the School Direct schemes where different schools, universities, and training providers team up to train students, which isn't an issue.

Schools care that you can teach. If it's a shortage subject they care that you have a pulse.

That's pretty much it from the schools' perspective.

What the organisation will be like is another matter. Not sure what the difference between PGCE stuff and QTS stuff is. Most of his time will be spent in schools on placement.

So long as he has QTS he can teach, the PGCE is the level 7 qualification that's almost like an added extra.

The PGCE is the essays bit. The QTS is the teaching bit.
It's appalling that this is happening but it will be fine.

Does anyone know why this happened? Durham seems to be extremely good for education and got a really good Ofsted report for their teaching trainer. What did the DfE have an issue with, or was it just a random political decision?

It's a move towards certain providers who meet the ideology of the government.

Thank you everyone. I'll pass on the reassurances about the course.

Although there is always the chance for disorganisation, this could happen with any course, and teaching training providers are hopefully well practiced at working with other organisations and schools so having to work with Newcastle hopefully shouldn't be much of an issue for them.

When I did my PGCE, it was at one provider (A) but "validated" by another (B). This meant we had zero contact at all with the "validating" provider, everything was done by provider A. We never saw or heard anything about provider B, but it is their name on my certificate.

What I will say, though, is that choosing the right provider with a strong department that supports the student and has good school links with quality placements is the single most important thing about any teacher training provider. If Durham do that, then they're a good choice.

Provider A was not like that, and I am no longer a teacher as a result.

Durham has not performed well in the last few years. It has a falling reputation generally and this is reflected in league tables where it us down at about 8th in the UK. My friend's husband is a professor in the Education department and he says they treat staff poorly- not enough of them because the university won't invest in them, short-term contracts, vacancies not filled, lack of time for research which has impacted on their research reputation. There is a feeling that making money has become more important than investing in staff and students. The university depends on its past reputation.

As a teacher, I never rated the PGCE which was far too academically focussed and the actual teacher training was poor. We stopped taking students from Durham over a decade ago. Northumbria, Newcastle and Sunderland were much better providers in specific subjects.

Unfortunately, a lot of universities are like that now. You will hear lecturers at most unis feeling let down by the management. Durham isn't unique as far as I know.

The issue with DS is that many of the other providers are a decent way from where he will end up living next year. Manageable, but still not ideal. He definitely isn't set on Durham though and will likely get a feel for them all if he gets to the interviews.

I also don't think being 8th is exactly a bad thing...

This. In 15yrs teaching I've been asked where I trained about three times. I actually think a couple of places that I've interviewed over the years might have taken me if I'd told them that I hadn't trained, let alone that I'd trained at the "wrong" place.

Once you get that QTS certificate in your hand, no one could care less.

I did my PGCE at Durham a looooong time ago and, whilst the academic side of it was good and resulted ultimately in an MA in Education for me, I hardly had any time in the classroom compared to others who trained at different universities.

It is for Durham. Reputation is everything to Durham.

Even in those tables (which aren't exactly gospel), they do well at education so can't be too bad.

Although yes, Durham clearly wanted to be seen as 3rd to Oxbridge, but that seems to be slowly slipping away.

Just realised you said they were much better in specific subjects. Would you say they are much better for maths?

Don't you have to have at least 120 days in class wherever you go? It seems to be that from what I've read, although as I'm not applying myself, I haven't spent that much time looking.

Unfortunately I had Y6 for my final placement, just before, during and after their SATS 🤦🏻‍♀️

Sounds a bit rubbish really and not the best planning. DS wants to go to secondary however so thankfully nothing like that should happen to him.

My PGCE (long ago) was from Durham and back then they were a disorganised utter fucking shambles. If he goes for interview though - well worth him asking the radius they'll send him on placement as some on my course got landed with pretty dreadful commutes so don't assume that Durham Uni = you'll get a County Durham placement.

That is the question that is top of his mind. He would almost certainly be happy at Newcastle, but is just concerned about where the placements would be.

He's also got the issue of getting to Newcastle uni itself. It is entirely manageable to get there (Google says it takes around 1h 15 mins to get door to door) but then you have to consider train cancellations or traffic depending on how he gets there. Plus, where his placements will end up being. Durham would be easier, but we both have slight concerns about the course itself.

has he considered http://www.durhamscitt.co.uk/ dont have any experience with this one but the ones in my region are.pretty good

He's very on the fence about school direct and all the SCITT stuff. I think it's mostly just because it's newer than the traditional uni route so not quite sure if it's viewed the same way.

However, he does seem to be slightly considering a school direct at an academy trust he got experience at. It is closer than all the unis and he did enjoy his time there. It is funded in the same way as the university PGCE, with the bursaries still available, so I think he might as well put it down as one of his 4 options.

As people have said up front nobody really cares were you train - and a lot/most teacher people dont really value the uni side of training so some SCITT can be better

It's definitely reassuring to hear that where you get QTS from doesn't really matter. He'll probably just go for the three closest unis and then the local SCITT at the academy trust.

One of the unis will still be Durham. It is quite a bit closer plus it shouldn't matter if Newcastle have to do the QTS part of it. He'll obviously ask at interviews where the placements at all the unis could possibly be (if he gets interviews that is).

Thanks everyone for your help!

I would also ask about workload of uni bit - it can be very different from different providers

I'll be sure to tell him to ask about the workload, although I'm sure that would be something he would ask anyway.

It also seems Durham has updated their course a bit this year. The modules are apparently different and they now say they will have at least 140 days in schools. Obviously more time is better so let's hope this actually is true.