11+ schools north London

[Schoollyy]

DS is in upper primary, and a lot of the older kids we know are being tutored for the 11+ at Latymer and other schools.

DS is bright, but not tutored. I don’t know if I want him to go in for all of that, but I thought we’d go and look at a few different schools and see if he wants to do the whole shebang that goes with the 11+.

What schools should we be looking at? I know of Latymer, but literally nothing else apart from private! I’m very much the type to send them to the local school… But the stress around secondaries is catching!

Whereabouts in North London are you? QE in Barnet is the main one that comes to my mind.

We used to live in North London and it's a big reason why we moved!! The Latymer is in one of the roughest areas! Enfield itself has become unsafe,many kids getting mugged by gangs after school. I couldn't think of anything more horrific.

The other reason is the totally ridiculous lengths local parents I know went to try and get their kids into these over rated, purely results focused hot houses!! There is Dame Alice Owens too. The level of extreme tutoring and / or enforced piano morning and night (our old neighbours poor children with tiger parents), is simply just tutoring them to pass specific tests! Does it really test natural intelligence? These schools are barbaric in my opinion. I know if teens who went there who developed eating disorders and other mental illnesses.

The reality from what I have seen is that only those who are naturally bright and very sure of themselves cope!

One kid, was in my son's primary class, (he was the brightest in his class plus parents were pushy teachers so he would have been tutored a lot) when he got to the Latymer felt so "thick" that he labelled himself as non academic sporty kid. In reality he was well above average but didn't feel it there, plus over tutoring may have make him appear more intelligent than he naturally was. He ended up with very poor self esteem.

I think these schools should only sit entrance tests that they cannot be tutored for. In reality only the very switched on and highly motivated and pushy parents go for these schools so the population is very skewed.

I'll get off my soap box about it now!! Suffice to say that I'm glad I made the move away! I would rather be top of the bottom group than bottom of the top group which is where a lot of kids will end up despite being very clever, in schools that select so strictly if you get what I mean

I think I needed to read this, because I feel like grammar schools are kind of immoral too! I’m getting too caught up in the stress bubble. Anything you have to tutor for is surely not selecting the “most academic”, just the “most pushy parents”? I don’t know. Living in north London, it’s easy to feel like you’re somehow letting your children down if you’re not anxious about their school, and they don’t do every extra curricular thing going.

Perhaps I should just settle for what we have… which is a decent comp. It’s tricky isn’t it? (We live not too far away from Fortismere in Muswell Hill. We were here long, long before kids, so just took for granted that they’d just go to the local schools, rather than moved for schools.)

Out of interest, where did you leave north London for?

Some of the comps in North London like APS are pretty decent. Would that be an option ?

@Schoollyy we moved to the Saffron Walden area - great London train links, fab schools, lovely area - Cambridge also has great schools too and fast trains. No pupil muggings around here and the parents are a bit less stressy so I've found. I felt exactly the same as you!!

QE / DAO / latymer / MHCHS - depends on where you leave.

I have never seen a bright kid without tutor activity (paid tutor or parent tutor and prep) get into the schools above via 11+ exam route. Those kids might exist in Mumsnet but good luck with that.

DAO can do sibling and location / MHCHS can do location too. So exam result is not as great as QE and Latymer.

Be careful what you sign up for.

I went to fortismere :)
It was great back in the day! Bit rough around the edges but heart in the right place. Not sure what it’s like these days.
agree about Latimer and Dame Alice - always seemed pretty pressured.

I went to Latymer! It was a good school, didn’t feel too hothouse-y or pressured but that may have changed (it’s been a while!). Had amazing music/media/drama resources at the time.

A bit late to the discussion, but it’s so interesting reading others’ experiences as we’re in a very similar boat to OP, albeit not so far down the secondary choices line (DD is only 6).

We’re currently based in Enfield and, despite the fact that I went to Latymer myself and loved it, we don’t think we can face embarking on the whole 11+ tutoring thing or super competitive admissions process. Things have changed a lot since I was there, and I remember the whole process feeling stressful enough at the time! But we don’t really find the other local secondary options appealing either. Not in catchment for DAO, and our nearest comp is of the zero tolerance/super strict variety, which doesn’t float my boat at all.

I think the solution for us will ultimately be moving elsewhere - and funnily enough, we’re also looking at Saffron Walden! @weebleswobblebuttheydontfalldown , if you happen to read this, how have you found the move from Enfield to SW? We’ve been looking at the area for ages (know it fairly well from day trips etc) but we’ve lived in Enfield for pretty much forever and the prospect of uprooting ourselves to somewhere much less busy and urban still feels a little daunting. How do the schools compare? Is there much to do socially, and with younger DC?

Hope you find a route through it all @Schoollyy. I used to teach primary in the area and know how ridiculous all the competition is so I feel your pain! Early days for us, but even though DD looks set to be fairly academic we really don’t want to start the whole ‘tutoring from Year 3’ business (especially as she also shows signs of having an anxious/perfectionist temperament).

I hear you!! I had only lived in London, then Enfield 16 years when we made the move. I felt really stressed at the time about being less urban however Uttlesford area of Essex now feels like it's getting busier. Lots of families moved from North London in particular! The railway goes into Liverpool street station so that helps me feel less remote! Newport is a good sized village with great shop, doctors, chemist, pubs There are still things open like supermarkets, Homebase, corner shops etc long hours. Loads of local family friendly activities and a real community feel. I can honestly say that after 7 plus years I haven't looked back!

Villages such as Wendens Ambo, Great Chesterford and Newport have stations so handy for London and Cambridge and as the kids get older and they want to go further afield. The countryside is gorgeous around here, however the parks are not as good as Town Park, Oakwood and Winchmore Hill but they are much less busy and feel safer to me.

All the schools are good around here, there are 2 main secondaries SWCHS in Saffron Walden which covers SW and some villages and Joyce Frankland Academy in Newport which covers other villages - many people seem to favour SWCHS as it's got a modern look, outstanding ofsted (albeit not assessed since 2012!) and has other funding but it's huge and It's quite a pushy school but is very good. JFAN is an historic school, slightly shabbier looking but more relaxed feel and much smaller. Good on ofsted and good with pastoral care. Both schools are very decent options indeed!! Compared with Enfield schools... some of my friends who are still there had problems with their kids being mugged upon leaving school, more than once! Also the new Wren academy is military with its behaviour policy creating really stressed out kids.

So the parents around here are stressing about which school as "one child they heard of had someone pick on them once" and other minor issues - compared to the type of issues and behaviour and danger from the local area I witnessed in Enfield, these parents have no idea!! There is a bit of low level crime around here from time to time, hare coursing, catalytic converter theft, occasional pick pockets but compared to London it's generally much safer!

There are loads of great cafes, restaurants, county pubs etc too, I feel very lucky to live around here. My kids have been really happy, they have had great opportunities locally for sport - football, tennis, hockey (is big in the area!), cricket, rugby, drama, music, coding etc etc and it's not as hard to get into as Enfield which I sometimes used to find. There are loads of families moving this way all the time so it's not as cliquey, people are used to new families arriving to the area and all were really welcoming I found.

Sixth forms are good too and with the trains they can go further such as Cambridge which has many good sixth forms too.

If you are considering private schools there are loads!!! All excellent in their own way too and many near the station which is handy.

Good luck and any other questions fling them my way!

@weebleswobblebuttheydontfalldown Thanks for the detailed info - so useful! We’re still very much at the planning stage at present (ideally looking to move when DD’s between Year 2 and 3) but I’ll be sure to get in touch if I have any more specific questions.

Yes, Wren is our catchment secondary but I’m really not sold on it. DD really doesn’t need that level of micromanagement and military discipline, especially as she shows signs of being slightly dreamy and a bit of a worrier - she’d be a nervous wreck in that kind zero tolerance of environment! I’ve also heard stories about stressed out kids and families being unable to take holidays because of the insane amount of homework - not what I want for DD (or us!) at all.

The only grammar schools that accept boys in North London are:

1. Latymer;
2. Dame Alice Owen; and
3. Mill Hill County High School.

The rest are in Kent or private schools.

QE boys and Latymer are state grammar schools.

DAO and Millhill County High are state comprehensive schools with partial selective intakes.

Sorry I forgot QE Boys!

And yes - technically DAO and Mill Hill County are not grammars but they are partially selective schools

Note that even MHCH has partial academic selective intake, the GCSE results are not much different to the non selective Wren Academy. I'm sure the experience is very different between these two schools.

I'd really like to hear more from those who have kids at Latymer (or know kids who are there) - we are considering for my DS at sixth form, but I'm a bit concerned about the 'roughness' people speak of.

There was a spate of (quite nasty/violent) gang muggings arond DS' current senior school last year - which is in what is considered to be an extremely safe area. However, it is also an affluent area and it was clear that 'rich kids' were being targeted...so surely anywhere in London risks problems and it's just life in a big city, to an extent? Or is Edmonton really particularly bad?!

@dingdongmerry I went to Latymer a long time ago and know children who study there now. Edmonton isn’t the best area - it was ‘edgy’ when I was at the school and is definitely worse now, but I wouldn’t say the day to day impact of the location on Latymer pupils is all that significant.

It definitely puts an increasing number of parents off applying though - I personally know many who would once have opted for Latymer but now look elsewhere. We were told to remove ties and blazers on our way home back in the ‘90s, and I imagine that prospective parents are now concerned about mugging and knives. However, I live in a leafier part of the borough and our nearest schools have after school patrols for the same reason - gangs travelling here from elsewhere to mug school kids - so as you say it’s all very similar worries really. Pupils from our nearest school are told to travel straight home at the end of the day to avoid any trouble, but on paper this school is in a much quieter and more affluent area than Latymer.