Ask an education expert anything about concrete school closures

[Lmacdougall1]

Morning everyone.
An education expert is doing a Q&A on the concrete situation later today and anyone can submit questions, might be useful for those worrying about their schools https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/raac-concrete-schools-questions-expert-b2404614.html

I think I'd rather ask questions of a structural engineer!

@lanthanum Im married to one. Lots of crap being talked by people who don’t know anything. As you might expect!

Ha ha @TizerorFizz that made me laugh. RAAC nationally is a huge issue as courts / hospitals etc have it ., total mess

I've got a serious question.

During the last Labour Government's ambitious 'Building Schools for the Future' programme, that was supposed to replace the hitherto piecemeal approach, a huge amount of resource went into surveys of schools by Local Authorities (a.k.a. Councils) to determine the priority candidates for rebuild. These were detailed surveys that cost a lot of money.

(The programme (BSF) was then reduced and altered and finally scrapped by the incoming Conservative Government in 2010 (i.e. the Tory/Lib Dem coalition).)

So what happened to the data and 'the learning' from the surveys carried out for 'Building Schools for the Future' that was supplied to the Department for Education, and showed hundreds and hundreds of schools in a parlous state? I was always under the impression that they confirmed exactly the sorts of problems that led to BSF in the first place: buildings no longer fit for purpose, asbestos, crap concrete, end-of-shelf-life structures. It seems odd that there is such a 'how were we to know?' insouciance emanating from the DfE this week about the state of schools.

Even more interesting was that there was a Conditions of Schools survey of school buildings by experts that ran from 2017 to 2019 that was also supposed to pick up on structural defects, electrical issues, boiler problems and so on, so that rebuilding could be prioritised.

That survey doesn't appear to have picked up RAAC issues, because the DfE still doesn't know where it is. We know that at least one school now closed with RAAC was turned down for a rebuild because other schools were in a worse state (presumably according to this survey data).

The govt published a summary of this survey data in 2021, and Nick Gibb promised he would publish the full dataset (so issues listed by school name) by the summer recess just gone. It hasn't been published.

Why were they not looking for RAAC?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/989912/Condition_of_School_Buildings_Survey_CDC1_-_key_findings_report.pdf

This is the sort of thing I mean (BBC, this morning).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-66723054

There is a gulf between 700 schools that were dropped from the 2004 Labour BSF and the 13 mentioned. This is because BSF didn’t really assess building need. It assessed all sorts of other things. In 2004 nearly every school was LA controlled and they put forward areas for the project. Most in Labour areas I would think looking at the criteria.

The move away from LA control to
mats and single school trusts gives huge issues as there really isn’t a central knowledge bank. Academies were a Labour idea. Remember Lord Adonis? Also in 2004 who really worried about RAAC? The LAs might have done but we no longer know. LAs no longer have architects and engineers doing this work so the LAs/schools pay consultants. If they decide to!! As the attached says, it’s better to have a NQT. False economy probably but we need to understand that buildings matter.

BSF built 35 new schools. It was hugely expensive due to PFI (or “I Saw You Coming” and there was a need for a new approach. What that should not have been is free schools that were not needed.

^The move away from LA control to
mats and single school trusts gives huge issues as there really isn’t a central knowledge bank. Academies were a Labour idea.^

Targeted at a small number of individual failing schools, who became sponsored academies. Tories took the idea and set the target of 100% of schools being academies with the ultimate goal of closing down LAs. MATs are their thing.

Many staff who worked in the central team in LAs now work in MATS

Had Labour been in Government after 2010, Adonis made it clear academies were the way forward. The policy was pretty much the same with sponsors being sought. Labour started it. No getting away from that!

I know Labour started it, but in a very different form. Blaming them for Tory policy is fairly standard though.

Standard? By whom? If Labour had continued, academies would have continued. I don’t know why Adonis got his way in the first place. Once the genie was out of the bottle, it wasn’t going back in!

The big problem has been the lack of funding for all schools needing refurbs. It was politicized by Labour with BSF and not enough was done by the Cons after scrapping BFG because they cut repair/replacement funding and allowed unnecessary free schools. Instead of having a coherent build and maintenance policy, you get political vote winning with schools and buildings. It’s a string of poor policies for 20 years. Both governments are to blame.

I've gone back to Hansard 2003, and the debate introduced by the then Schools Minister was David Miliband. Can't believe it was 20 years ago.

BFG??? BSF I meant!

Number of English schools with Raac rises to 174 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-66853196

Well they have been looking for it now! I’m surprised it’s not more.

It is.

My daughter hasn’t been in school AT ALL since the start of the year and that school isn’t even on the list.

Cracked up at john dickens being described as an education expert! He is s journalist at a small mostly online business

and obviously an amazing publicist

My daughter was in school for one day before being ‘rehoused’ as the school has suspected RAAC. Nearly her entire school are being schooled in an old, disused nursery block made up of portacabins in the grounds of another primary. We aren’t on any lists either…

Anyone can describe themselves as an education expert

Nobody actually seems to look at what sort of repair/maintenance/replacement schedule is needed in the long term.

The difference between rebuilding 100 schools a year and 50 schools a year is that they'd manage to rebuild each school every 240 years, instead of every 480 years. How long are the new builds expected to last?

(Hopefully it's not that bad, if there are partial rebuilds which are not included in that. Incremental replacement is actually more sensible, as replacing one block at a time can be done without having to close/relocate the school. However although I can think of lots of new blocks being built, I can't actually think of any being demolished, other than one which burnt down.)

I think some of the RAAC blocks will be demolished. Not all schools have it in all buildings.

@lanthanum New buildings last well if built to last. Brick lasts pretty well. Flat roofs do not last well. So it’s down to using decent materials and making sure design is going to last. Good design and materials costs more. In recent times school look more like warehouses for children. At least the new free school where DM lives does. It’s awful and cheap. It won’t last. However long lasting matériels cost more and expertise is needed to build them. RAAC was a factory made component. It was lightweight and cheap. We need to evaluate which modern forms of construction stand the test of time. Some better then others.