Gillian Keegan: how’s the ‘hot mic’ thing gone down with you?

[Crinklycut]

For my part, I don’t think it was very ministerial, and I do wonder how No. 10 all talk to each other these days (do they just swear all the time?) BUT she is a bit right, isn’t she?

The DfE have finally acted to make the public aware that their children are not safe in school. That’s more than anyone else in the Conservative party has done since they cancelled ‘Building Schools for the Future’ in 2010 and during their 13 years of government.

So how’s it gone down with you?

Or the problem lies with RAAC being very hard to spot.

From a pp

Or the problem lies with RAAC being very hard to spot.

Would a structural engineer say this was the case?

According to Construction News:
It’s hard to identify and expensive to fix.

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/health-and-safety/raac-can-our-schools-be-made-safe-14-08-2023/

Plus apparently RAAC is fine in the right place. Whatever the right place might be.

Raac isn't hard to spot per se but it is hidden, often where there is (or suspected) asbestos in situ.

building surveyors come in at 100s per day, then there is asbestos contractors, air filtration to be done during and afterwards, whole areas sheeted, its a not a guy with a clip board and hard hat wandering around.

13 schools deemed dangerous in 2010 and due to be rebuilt, were removed from the rebuild program by the coalition government... Michael Gove was ed sec.

Apparently Raac has caused some theatres to be closed, NHS staff advised on the dangers and what to look for... really?

As i ve said before, Austerity has caused so much harm to the UK, just like with our own homes, failure to keep up with mtce is always far more expensive in the long run yet still we carry on with it, most notably with our roads.

Yes, this needs a qualified competent person to do a full inspection. Often it is invasive testing (eg taking down ceilings, drilling into walls etc) that is required. Not just a look around.

when I say “competent” by the way, I don’t mean good at their job. That is a legal term for someone with the right qualifications and ongoing training. Not the caretaker, or a local builder.

And certainly not the HT!

@BitOutOfPractice but that sort of detailed testing can’t be happening in all schools and in all parts of schools where there have been additions to the original buildings.

I am not a structural engineer, but I doubt that makes any difference.
How is anyone supposed to be able to see inside a bit of concrete to see whether or not it has been weakened?

With regular steel reinforced concerete one can see when it is degraded, cracks appear, or there is damage around the steel reinforcement. My understanding that RAAC degrading is much less obvious.

building surveyors come in at 100s per day, then there is asbestos contractors, air filtration to be done during and afterwards, whole areas sheeted, its a not a guy with a clip board and hard hat wandering around.

Don't forget they will need a hammer and screwdriver as well, or is that just HTs?

Span widths, water ingress, defection curve, supporting panel damage.

All require an expert & a great deal of disruption... funny really that the guy who told us we don't need experts is also the guy who ignored their advice when Ed Secretary.

An experienced structural engineer would find out what’s there. It’s not the case that all schools will have asbestos either. If there were still working drawings in existence, the construction would be known. There’s lots of the schools in Essex so maybe Essex had a contract with RAAC manufacturer? The panels were made off site. It’s like a system build.

The big issue is whether water has corroded the internal steel. Poorly maintained flat roofs and gutters are likely to cause this. To inspect fully, you would see quite a lot of disruption. That’s why heads cannot do it. They might need to organise it though. Yes. It’s going to cost money, but doesn’t everything!?

Structural engineering consultants pay huge sums in insurance. For expert work others cannot do, you pay! Many secondary heads get £100,000 pa. What’s their daily rate including all the employer costs and then you have insurance. DHs company pays well over £100,000 pa just for that. As people are now realising. Structural engineering is life or death! It matters.

Don't forget that many schools who did have expert consultation and visits were passed as safe. It is one of these buildings (all hush hush so it's not clear it was a school, but it was!) that had a ceiling collapse this summer. Hence the panic.

That is exactly what all HTs are being expected to organise right now!

From what I understand from Keir Starmer's PMQs there are schools who were planned to be rebuilt or repaired in Labour's Schools For The Future programme which was announced in 2004, (and cancelled by the Tories in 2010) that have still not been done.

19 years later.

That can't be good, can it?

This is my concern.

Our school was passed safe in the last inspection apparently.

But that's meaningless isn't it?

I wonder if there are any post war built prisons made of this stuff? Because if I was a prisoner watching the news right now I'd be testing out the walls

Many schools that were previously passed safe will have now fallen under the DfE’s new guidance last week.

Is the summer incident name of school known?

I can see Kent 2018 school and Rosemead (which I’m not sure was RAAC as something about overloaded storage) but not name of summer one. Do people mean this summer

Rosemead for info - The court heard tables and chairs had been stored above the classroom in an attic, on roof boards only designed to take light weights.

It's not been confirmed as a school.

Sorry, replied to wrong post!

To reply correctly, it's not been confirmed it was a school. It was a building 'previously passed as safe'.

Rosemead wasn't RAAC . Different structural issue.

How can people have missed the whole point that one passed as safe fell in 2 weeks ago hence the new grading? Also the argument they knew for years, well yes hence the inspections but the classification was incorrect, we only know that from a few days before keegan changed the rules. As a response to the collapse. Not for no reason or no change since 1994 or even 2018 or 2022. I still really dislike her but most comments seem to miss the catalyst!

In fact keegan said 2 roofs collapsed over summer in her sky interview after the mic incident.

Surely the catalyst is that heads wandering around with Phillips screwdrivers isn't a reliable method for passing schools as safe?

Ok but where exactly isn’t known is that right?

Not sure why wherever it was isn’t in the press

Why does it matter?