Dartford Grammar vs Dulwich College

[90stweenbooksfan]

My friend has a bright son who got into Dartford Grammar from outside the catchment at 11+. He’s a hard worker who is great at science and maths and good enough but weaker at English and doesn’t love it.

Dartford does the IB so his mum is a bit anxious about this vs A levels where he could focus on his preferred maths and science subjects.

He is cricket mad but not a top athlete. He has got an offer with a small academic scholarship at Dulwich College but the fees are still super high.

Both schools are rugby focused which is not ideal.

Parents are on paper good earners - too high for bursaries - but not rich and are finding the current private fees for two a strain. They’re worried about incoming VAT and regular fee rises.

Her son has the right work ethic for a grammar but has a preference for Dulwich due to friends going there and the facilities etc.

Dartford gets marginally better results and is ‘free’.

Does anyone have experience of one or
the other and WWYD?

I live near dartford grammar and looked around with my son. They do get excellent results consistently and the extra curricular activities on offer are also great - it is indeed equivalent to private school but free. They are very strict on behaviour and not the best with any exceptions for adhd/asd so we went with another local grammar which is also excellent as I didn't think my son who has asd/adhd would have coped with the strict expectations!

I also have many friends who went to dartford grammar and it's always had a great reputation.

I do not know about Dulwich College but if they are struggling with private fees already I'd say it's not going to get easier at secondary age - more expensive in fact so I'd go for Dartford instead. However, how far away from the catchment are they as a long daily commute can take its toll and it is expected they will attend house rugby tournaments and matches on Saturdays too which can be either at dartford or anywhere in Kent. So can they commit that on top of the daily travel?

Thank you @Aria20 for your response. I think they need some reassurance as they have not ever been to local schools. I think the commute is probably about the same for each school from where they are except DG would involve the boy going on his own via train and I hear it’s quite a walk at the other end. Did your DS get into Bexley? She didn’t try hers for that. When you say discipline, do you mean a Harris Academy style boot camp? He’s a well behaved lad anyway but I do wonder how it will feel vs the slightly more soft/nurturing environment he’s in now! I guess it probably all changes at secondary anyway with expectations for homework etc going up. They have to attend Saturday rugby at DC anyway so that won’t be too much of an additional burden.

But has she accepted the Dulwich 11plus place? In which case she has already committed to autumn term fees and needs to give notice by end of the summer holiday to avoid paying for spring term too.
It's really bad form to hold onto a private and grammar place so late in the day, both schools will have WL with parents desperate for a place.

Yes they should budget for 10% fees increase each year and 20% vat on fees in about 5 years time ( the estimated time it would take a labour govt to implement the increase).

Not a boot camp style strict no, just no nonsense and no exceptions to anything which is not a bad thing but from friends whose ds went there with additional needs I just knew it wouldn't be the best fit for my son. If their son is well behaved he'll be fine and it's not far from the station, I'd say a 10 min walk max and there will be loads of others walking from the station too so he won't be alone or get lost. If he likes music they have the Mick Jagger Centre which is really good!

Not Bexley grammar, Gravesend Grammar which has great results, extra curricular activities and fantastic pastoral care so suits my son better. They are also very rugby/cricket focused but I think all the grammars and boys private schools are the same!

Thanks @tennissquare not sure what her position is but will remind her about notice. She must have forfeited some money if she chooses the grammar but not as much as paying fees I guess.

Why will it take five years? I thought it would come in in September ‘25 - assuming Labour wins the next election to be held next year or Jan ‘25 at the latest.

The big question here is why didn't your friend make this decision back in March at the correct time? They are currently holding 2 school places and are already liable for the deposit plus at least a term's fees if they decline Dulwich now?

If they have concerns about the IB then why apply to Dartford? Lots of other local grammars do A levels. The IB is a huge amount of pressure in the sixth form years so won't suit everyone. Plus it doesn't allow kids to focus on, say, science if that is their forte. Not sure how the IB would prepare for degrees like engineering or medicine where at least 2 sciences to A level standard are required.

Dulwich has consistently better academic results and is the school we chose. No regrets here but if finance is an issue then can see that the pull of Dartford would be hard to resist.

Main thing is that your friend decides ASAP. There are 2 boys out there, at the top of the respective waiting lists, who would give anything to have the place she doesn't want.

@90stweenbooksfan , because there are more pressing issues for a labour govt to focus on and vat on fees concerns 7% of the pupil population and with exemptions that would be created to ensure private schools can continue to offer charitable places etc it will be even less affected.

Get her to check the small print, 1 thing all private schools have in common is that they hold parents to account for the notice period. They will have based their budgets on the ds taking up the place with the academic scholarship that won't be given to anyone else now.

Good points both, thanks. @TJsAunt I can’t find it now but I thought Dartford had slightly better results? Not relevant to me personally btw as mine would sadly not get in out of catchment!

@tennissquare I know people close to Rachel R a bit and know VAT on fees is an absolute priority for her. It’s a massive vote winner too as it does affect only 7% of the school population. We are in the fee paying system for now so it will definitely affect us btw so I am not arguing about the rights and wrongs. Was just interested if any analysis had been done on how long it would take to implement as the legal briefings I’ve read have suggested it would be enacted within a few months of a Budget.

@90stweenbooksfan , that's interesting too, I work in education but am not aware of any analysis just general conversation. Yes it's definitely a vote winner.

VAT on school fees is not a straightforward thing to do, btw, due to VAT and charity legislation, so it is very unlikely that it will be implemented very quickly. It will take time to work it out. (Charity accountant here).

Thanks @RockaLock. I defer to your superior knowledge! I was reading something saying the charitable status thing is separate to VAT. But obviously could be wrong. I have also read if you are wealthy enough to pay upfront before this comes in, you may avoid the VAT extras… So ironically the policy will benefit the super rich as opposed to the well off!

Hopefully they'll have a plan in place to increase state school places before the demand swells.

Dulwich beat Dartford hands down in terms of GCSE results - per info on both websites.

VAT on school fees will be a good few years away. Even if Labour do get in in January 2025, I can't see how they will be able to push through the VAT change in 8 months?? (whether you know the shadow chancellor or not is irrelevant)

The increased demand on state education when a large proportion of the 7% switch should not be underestimated.

In London, demand for many state schools dropped post Covid due to people moving out of the capital or to private after appalling provision during lockdown. There will be state schools that welcome the increase in students and therefore income. But you are 100% right about a rush for state school places in already desirable schools. It will lead to smaller catchments for those and increased rent and house prices.

Hi 90stweenbooksfan,

I teach at Dartford and hope I can help a little with the school's ethos and culture. I am aware that your friend's son will have chosen one of the two schools already. If he is at DGS I hope that he is having an enjoyable time! Nevertheless, I hope this thread may help other parents in similar positions in future years.

I'll give my perspective as a former student and current teacher at Dartford, with references to Dulwich where possible (though I don't know much about the school).

Firstly, I would describe Dartford as a school dedicated to nurturing curious young adults. We pride ourselves on developing inquiring, thoughtful and diligent students. In my lessons, from Years 7 to 13, I try to cultivate an atmosphere where students are driven to a deep understanding. This translates into students who think deeply about their subjects. Recently, students have been accepted onto internships at CERN and NASA, reflecting this drive to think deeply.

We support students with a strong super-curricular program. The full program can be seen here (by clicking on one of the 3 images at the bottom of the page):

https://www.dartfordgrammarschool.org.uk/Co-Curriculum/

We ask students to participate in at least 2 clubs / societies each week. We encourage students to pursue aspirations that relate to academics, sports and volunteering. In addition, we ask all students in Year 10 to achieve the Bronze Duke of Edinburgh's award. Having progressed from Bronze to Gold as a student during my time at the school, I can assure that 5-day treks across Snowdonia and Madeira are life changing. It led me to trek and volunteer in the highlands of Scotland for 2x2-weeks during my third year of university.

We offer an academic program that is comparable to Dulwich college, with a super-curricular program that supports our students to attain top places at universities across the UK (including Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial and the LSE). This includes an excellent BioMed society run by a teacher who works as a cancer researcher at the Royal Marsden Hospital in his spare time.

If the IB curriculum in the sixth form is new, here's a perspective, from a student who has studied the IB at DGS and now teaches it as well! By the sounds of things, part the query was around whether the IB is suitable to someone with particular strengths in Maths and Science. There is a valid argument that students who are certain that they want to study engineering at university would be better supported with an A-Level curriculum. It would be more focused on Maths / Physics and is unlikely to include lessons on English, Humanities and Languages.

However, I would encourage a prospective student to consider a wider perspective. The IB involves 6 subjects because it is designed to support a student throughout their life. An engineer may need to be able to converse in another language when talking with a client; deliver a convincing pitch to an investor; or communicate complex ideas in concise terms with a customer. The IB supports students in developing these skills. I am so glad that i studied 2 languages (Japanese and Latin) because they (particularly the first) have taken me to places that I would otherwise not have been to. This includes a homestay with a Japanese family (who I met through the DGS exchange program).

Furthermore, whilst A-levels require little coursework, the IB has coursework for every subject, plus the Extended Essay and Theory of Knowledge. Whilst this demands more of students, it also prepares them with the skills they need to thrive, independently, at university and in work. I felt significantly less pressure during my first year at Warwick having studied the IB because I was used to meeting several deadlines per term.

I hope this has given a perspective on the culture of Dartford and what it means to be a DGS student. Any questions, please do ask below!

Best wishes,
Mr R.

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Hi , what grammar school did your asd son end up going to pls