Schools with fees £35k pa are they worth it?!

[tartanlines]

That's it really, are they really worth that?! My dc wants to go to one sigh...

It really does depend on what you are looking to get for your money, and whether you weighed up what the school is offering for that money.

my dc’s’ prep was ok. It did the job. It was better previously than it is now, imo, but ds (my youngest) is leaving this year, so done with it now. Ds is moving for year 7, rather than staying for years 7&8 at prep. His sister did the same. I don’t think years 7&8 offer good value at prep.

we turned down ‘big name’ schools for both dd and ds, as they wouldn’t have suited (neither what I wanted from a school, nor suited the dc). One school we looked around for dd, they could not have been less interested in her as a person. Not a single question asked of us as to what she was like, what she was interested in, or what we were looking for. There was absolutely no way we were going to stump up the best part of £250k (over the 7 years ) to a school that wasn’t even interested in her. We chose a school that was much better suited, and dd is really thriving.

likewise, we turned down similar places for ds, as they were all about what he could do for them, and not what they could do for him.

it is a lot of money, and you do need to (try to) make sure you are spending it as wisely as you can, so that you don’t resent it or feel it is wasted.

Would you mind clarifying which school are you talking about? We are heading to one next year and would like to if that's the one as I am a bit terrified from your description

I really wouldn't want to do that on a public thread @questioningall.

It depends on the school and your child in my opinion. Some are worth it (I’d always walk around the school/local area and see how happy the children look), if the child’s personality suits that school. Others won’t be (eg there’s no point in sending an academic, non sporty, child to a school with amazing sports facilities but less impressive academic results).

Am finding this thread really interesting. One of my DC is in a top london day school at the junior level and tbh I haven’t been that wowed by the teaching. But I don’t have a good comparator. She is so happy socially I’ve been having a real dilemma about whether to move her to state at secondary. Have also been a bit scared by some of the reports of much bigger behaviour challenges in quite a lot of state schools post Covid (eg on the staff room thread on here)

I think it’s all relative to affordability.

We only had the money for independent (a big inheritance) in the October before DC was due to start. I could have gone back to work full time in the City to afford it but it would have been a huge sacrifice to family life and meant having to use breakfast and after school club every day for their sibling.

We stood in the grammar school and asked was the education at the independent we loved actually worth £35k a year more than what we would get there. The answer was of course not!!!!!

However, once the money came through our perception changed. Having specialist training in her main sport, several drama productions each year, on site school counselor, small class sizes etc have obvious benefits. If you can afford it because the cash is just sat there, then the money issue kind of becomes irrelevant.

In the end we let them choose between the grammar and the independent and I would have honestly been equally happy with both.

I guess the key is to find the RIGHT school for your child as opposed to just results, fancy facilities or “prestige”. There will almost certainly be an element of disappointment if you choose an expensive school for the wrong reasons.

Not worth it IMHO. Sent our eldest to top London day school and still had to shell out on tutors - as did most other parents. Younger DC wanted to go the local state school as she hated the hot-housing vibe at the private school - she is off to St Andrew’s uni assuming she gets the grades (which she should). Saved us ££££ - just paid for a bit of extra tutoring (which we did in the private sector too)

This is a pointless question as private education is pie in the sky thinking for our family, but mumsnetters are usually willing to be candid.

Does anyone pick private prep because they like the freedom that prep schools have? I've noticed our local prep schools seem to be much more holistic from a young age and have greater breadth in terms of their curriculum offer. Is that because they're socially selective so don't have to spend as much time doing a lot of the catch up work that many state schools have to, or are the parents on the whole more engaged educationally so the staff can get on with teaching and learning? Or something else/ have I really embarrassed myself and shown my ignorance of the private sector?

Curiosity is getting the better of me as a state sector teacher who seems to see more and more time getting taken up by non-teaching and learning things.

It's what you have listed but also smaller classes and no DfE interference, they don't have all the compulsory testing etc, no Ofsted in most cases, instead ISI or ISA.

Depends on the school, surely? Some are great. Some are rubbish.

Does anyone pick private prep because they like the freedom that prep schools have? I've noticed our local prep schools seem to be much more holistic from a young age and have greater breadth in terms of their curriculum offer. Is that because they're socially selective so don't have to spend as much time doing a lot of the catch up work that many state schools have to, or are the parents on the whole more engaged educationally so the staff can get on with teaching and learning? Or something else/ have I really embarrassed myself and shown my ignorance of the private sector

I think all of the things you mention are a part of it but, to be totally honest, I think it's more the case that academic lessons are not as valued/sacrosanct as they are in state primaries. I teach a subject where I only have one lesson a week and, with the number of other events, sports fixtures etc on in the summer term, there are some classes who I will only see 3 or 4 times in the whole term!! I used to care but, once it became apparent that neither SLT nor the parents do, I just thought 'sod it' and embraced the fun. And we do have a huge amount of fun. The children get brilliant experiences. But actual basic classroom education ... hmmmm ... they catch up later, I guess! One of my colleagues moved to a large state primary in a deprived area and found that lesson time is almsot untouchable. Totaly contrast.

Longer school days, extended evenings and boarding do help too though, to be fair. We have longer physically with the children so we can do more. Also, our children aren't behind from Covid.

I would say yes. Or at least we said yes for us and it has worked well. One has SEND and needs more support which he gets, whilst having the facility to do none sporty activities well because that's just not how he's built and his interest lies elsewhere. Another is a straight down the line sports fanatic that thrives in a totally different way. They both also have exceptional teaching and care right from the top. It's superb and I know how lucky we are but I wouldn't change it, ever.

Issue is that if you didn’t go to them, you don’t realise how bad they are!

we kept dipping into state - all ‘outstanding’ and all shite!

My observation from having moved the kids from state to private would be that they can get through the core English and maths at faster pace for a few reasons - stricter behaviour expectations, smaller classes sizes, engaged parents (for example all the kids are reading every night in infant school). The days are also longer so just more time for the breadth. The class teachers also get more regular breaks from the kids when they go to do French/music/games/IT etc which I am sure helps keep everyone (adults and kids) more engaged.

my younger 2 have gone through private schools since preschool (oldest one too, but at a SN school).

the advantages for me:

the hours worked with what I needed, given that I had to have children at separate schools - eg, could drop child into the classroom, with class teacher and TA, from 8am; lessons in infant years ended at 3.30pm. but after school care was free until 4.30pm to coincide with older siblings further up the school.

sport incorporated into daily life, every day of the week. at least an hours sport/pe/swimming every day, some days (from year 3) over 2 hours. swimming every week of the year, from reception. every child participating in a match most weeks (mine weren't particularly sporty, but were still in teams, playing against other schools) - in football, (touch) rugby, netball, hockey and cricket.

sport, music, art and drama all taught by specialist teachers, from year 1. in reception, there were specialist teachers for sport and music. music concerts and performances every term - class concert, year concert, nativity, year play every year from year 2. Informal lunchtime music concerts each week. art projects incorporated throughout the curriculum.

science and languages taught by specialist teachers from year 3. languages often earlier.

a TA available to every class (class size 18 maximum), up to end of year 2. from year 3, 2 TAs shared across 3 classes.

extra staff (usually gap year students, or recent graduates looking to get into teaching) on hand to help out in sport and swimming lessons, as well as in after school clubs, drama sessions/school productions.

taken all together, it all adds up to a lot of support for class teachers, a lot of 'extras' (music, art etc) for the dc, small class sizes, and a very varied curriculum. both mine have ASD, which the school was aware of from the point of joining (dd joined in preschool, ds was born when she was in year 1, and got his dx before joining in reception), and I had no experience of being managed out, etc - not even a hint of it. dc do not have particularly challenging behaviours (but do have a challenging mum, if their needs aren't being met!)

I think it’s often fear that leads people to pay, especially those who can only just about afford it.

There is fear that a state primary education will mean they aren’t as far ahead and then can’t access a good private secondary school. There is fear that the children in state schools will be rough and disruptive. There is fear about not providing what is perceived as ‘the best’ and especially for those who had a private education themselves. And once you’re in, as others say, it can be hard to get out.

I agree with a PP who mentioned the kids who don’t want to do any sport or music or extra curriculars, or make any use of the lovely facilities that their parents are paying handsomely for. It does seem a waste. One of my friends asked her DC if they wanted to play an instrument, be in an orchestra and play team sport - she told them that if they didn’t want that, she wasn’t going to pay fees, as that was what a lot of the money was for. I thought it was a fair point.

In my experience, the Prep we paid for, provided a lovely experience. It was a little bit eccentric and gave a lovely childhood. There were good things - lovely outdoor education, French at GCSE level by the time they left, lots of sport and a wonderful House system. Nice to haves, but not essential to be honest. Unfortunately the Maths and English teachers were not great. We paid for tutors to give us confiendence that entrance exams could be passed.

And at senior level, I can’t say it was worth the fees,…but that’s what the fees were and we wanted that education. The big benefits were having a critical mass of bright and motivated students. I have to say, my DC had a great learning environment. The motivation and work ethic of the other kids really influenced them and made them harder workers than they might have been otherwise. It’s hard to know what the environment of the (very good) Comp would have had on them and if they would have been one of the few to get the kind of results most who left their independent had, or if they would have achieved slightly or significantly less.

The constant spin from the school and the propaganda leaflets, blogs, videos and other crap really did become grating. Without a doubt, the school is constantly marketing itself and has an excessive interest in attracting future students and photo opportunities, rather than the current students….but perhaps they are all like this and it’s necessary for their futures.

In the end, I don’t regret our choices, but we chose day schools that were costing about £22k per year by the end and not £35k. It’s still a lot of money and I’m not sure we would have got loads more for an extra £10k+ per year. We could afford it and still have some holidays and save for our pensions etc and weren’t bothered about not moving to the next level up house etc.

As time passes and the young adults move beyond education and into life, you do somehow look back and wonder if it was worth it. As time passes and school is further behind, the worries and concerns when choosing primary and then senior get forgotten and all you tend to see is the successful young adults…and imagine they could have been the same people from any school. Maybe they would have been. Lots from state schools all over the country have as good qualification, career and happy lives ….and many don’t too.

In the end, I just decide that we did what seemed best at the time with the info we had. We were lucky to have the choice at all and lucky to have got through without making vast sacrifices in other areas of life. We see our young adults now, who we are proud of and love immensely. So no regrets here.

@Cloudburstings were your kids bilingual on entry at pre/ pre-prep level?
where did you familiarize yourself with the London international school scene?

we are considering this for our child. We have always been “internationals” but find ourselves kind of spun out and “stuck” in the uk after Covid- where we didn’t intend to be, but we have UK passports and both went to school here- so not sure what do, and appreciate any guidance

If the Labour government had not got rid of grammar schools in the 1970s people would not be paying for these schools now (or only the international elite would be paying).
There is a lot of Angst amongst middle class parents over schooling, but most kids get to, where they were meant to, in the end. The key is to keep them happy and motivated and energetic.

We did state grammar and state primary. It did make me nervous sometimes, but there has been no difference in outcome, as compared to the many cousins who went to the very top, very expensive independent schools. If you stay local and they have a good friendship group and a solid hobby or two, you cannot go wrong.

I chose to work part time though and so I could support my DC with hobbies etc. I could have worked full time and sent them to independent schools. The outcome educationally and financially would have been the same for us. The very long holidays in private schools made me a little nervous too - again, if they have a solid hobby then it is fine.

Great if you live in a grammar area and your kids wouldnpass the 11+

I don't think mine would have, not without a lot of angst (unknown on mumsnet as allegedly all the kids get into grammar with no tutoring, in fact the parents don't even know the child applied to grammar as they are so hands off, and their small geniuses are the most motivated kids in the country)

So they had a relaxed childhood and will come out with good grades and go to rg unis for the most part. Worth the money to me.

@LazJaz ive PM’d you

@Damnspot - if there were the will, Government could bring back grammar schools without just one arbitrary 11 plus test. So the state primary teacher/head teacher could recommend children for grammar based on years of data, like they do in some other countries. And if the parents disagreed, then they could have a test as a backup. Teachers mostly know which children would be suitable for a grammar system.

I think if the government is going to aim to phase out private schools then they need to bring back selective education, it could also translate to more effective grammar streams in comprehensives.

Most developed countries have academically selective schooling and it works pretty well as long as children in the normal streams are given lots of attention and great teachers. It operates on extra attention and slower pace for those who need it and faster pace for grammar streams. There has to be an option to move from one stream to the other, if circumstances change.

Appreciate this is an old thread, but we’re considering moving DS from an outstanding CofE primary to a local prep for year 2. We live in a very nice part of the country with no grammars. The prep feeds in to one of the well known public (boarding) schools, which we’re far less keen on the idea of. If any of you have insights on prep (or wish to DM me in confidence with which preps/public schools not to touch with a barge pole) I would be incredibly grateful for any insight or views please.

Sounds reminiscent of many posts about Winchester College over the past few years....

As a general observation, Prep is a lovely luxury - preps often do the educational trimmings very well - and like all social luxuries, you get to connect with self-selected families - and form a little bubble of fun/love on top of controlled class sizes and pupil similarity: sports and plays and activities and parties. Parent drinks… It all makes for a really nice extension to well-off family life.

if you can afford it, what’s not to like…other than what we found to be rather hit and miss teaching what with it being loosely regulated (“let’s have the PE teacher have a go at teaching algebra”) and a certain randomness to the curriculum (“let’s do mandarin calligraphy instead of writing English this term”)…

Senior school is however different because you are at the business end - and need to focus on university / higher ed outcomes. So you actually want something specific and also value for money. You want individualised attention for your kid for your 30k … but our experience is that some flashier private schools have lost sight of that …especially where a school is run as commercial organisation and its a bums on seats mentality....

In these cases, what you have is a bunch of teachers and estate agency type hangers-on - with no real business experience - doing buildings investment, facilities management, the overseas tourism roster, fund-raising, international marketing … and the organisational structure is lacking…because they are teachers and estate agents not hoteliers or systems integrators…

All of which leaves little time to worry about the didactic considerations of the maths curriculum…and whether your kid is fulfilling their academic potential or conversely spending too much time rowing…

Which can all leave you feeling like a bit of a mug…

Yes, this is the quandary - will it be a positive, transformational experience which stretches my DS and gives him opportunities in music, sport, MFL and other subjects which he won’t get in state, or is prep just an unnecessary “nice to have” and senior school a total gamble.

No way of really knowing until you’re out the other side, by which time after 1 child you’ve thrown over half a million quid down the drain. Which we really can’t afford. I don’t expect it to guarantee a top job or even a top uni place anymore; I just want to give DS the best chance, but if it’s actually a woollier curriculum than at state and some of the top public schools are no longer to be relied upon then that could be one hell of a mistake to make.

Grateful for insight from any others on the thread re prep or senior.