Can a school ever "overcome" its catchment?

[QuickGuide]

I'm thinking of secondary schools.

I live in a town with a lot of deprivation and the associated social issues. None of the schools here are highly thought of and families with the means/determinaton tend to send DC to schools in neighbouring towns.

The schools here are left struggling with the social issues from the community. The school with the worst reputation is in heart of the most challenging estate.

However, I know the head in a professional capacity. He's a local boy who went to the school himself. He is incredibly impressive as a professional, really stands out in the meetings I go to and really cares passionately about the children and the school. In many ways he's turned it around, they're now in a strong financial position and OFSTED, behaviour and results are improving.

They do still have a lot of issues with behaviour and some students are still low attainers/poor attenders. There are often fights outside the school, sometimes involving parents, for example.

A friend of mine is literally terrified that her child will be allocated this school and even though I think it's being well run compared to some of the schools locally which have better reputations, I can see her concerns.

Can a school ever really succeed where children come from backgrounds that make learning challenging?

Depends on what you mean by succeed.
For some kids, getting them into the building every day, giving them a hot meal, and keeping them away from making trouble on the streets can be a success.
If you mean "Get every child 5+ GCSE's above a grade 5",it would be incredibly tough to get some schools to succeed.

I'd class a successful school as one that can give very child what they need - be that a safe space, or the GCSE's to go on to college and uni.

A well run school can give every child the option of learning and achieving. But cant do much with children from families where education is not supported. And a child's experience in a school depends very much on who they sit next to

I guess I mean be the kind of school that "nice" families want to send DC to.

I worked in a school that went from 18% to 40% A*-C (showing my age right there!) in five years. This was a result of a slow staff turnover, loyal staff committed to putting in extra revision and holiday sessions for the kids, very strong pastoral system including assistant heads of year and for some subjects, more coursework-based exam boards.
There were more funding initiatives including for gifted and talented, you had the usual educational themes de jour e.g. beacon schools followed by college specialisms status but more £ for Special Needs provision is what will ever really make a difference.

In my (limited) experience most 'nice' families will not want to send their children to a school where a significant proportion of the children are from deprived backgrounds- no matter how well run that school is or how successful it is at educating all of its pupils. Parents don't want their children to experience the issues that you've mentioned. It's frustrating but the best that the headteacher you mention can do is to provide the best possible school experience for the children in that area (who arguably need his skills and passion even more than the children in the nice area schools).

My DH works in a primary school in a deprived part of town. Objectively, it is a better school than many in nearby areas (better ofsted rating, smaller classes, loads of extra-curricular offerings etc). Yet the more aspirational families in the area send their children to other school if they can. And any mention of this school to other parents tends to be met with a grimace.

Mikala School is supposed too. Not sure I am a fan but it works for some.

Defining "Naice" families is a weird one - rich often doesn't equate to pleasant but to answer succinctly, the more affluent will vote with their feet leaving other "naice" (but economically poor) families to find God and try for a Catholic school, buy a new postcode, or take their chances with whatever is on the doorstep...
tbf if you have a resilient, high-achieving pupil they will find their way regardless.

I'd be wary because we thought we'd found one.

We were moving to the area looked at data for all the schools it was steadily improving for over 7 years and looked good compared to other local improving schools- had best exam results ever few years of DD1 being there. Only one solidly good one and we couldn't afford house prices there and would have made work commutes much longer and more expensive.

Then Etsy report- bottom 10% while improving weren't improving fast enough - 12 months late that head left - been in special measure ever since - the pastoral care which had been fantastic gone - exams results cashed - they hide the staffing issues they've had when they can and my kids constantly complain about poor behavior impacting on teaching time even in top sets.

Though DN goes to a very good school - much more middle class intake than here and her school gone downhill since covid as well.

My DC are now stuck there till after GCSEs - I really wish we'd looked elsewhere. I know it could happen to a good school as well but how quick and how steep the downturn has been has been frightening.

The head is in a chicken and egg situation - he needs more 'nice' families who support education to send their DC to the school in order to improve grades, behaviour and reputation - but those kind of families aren't going to send their kids to that school until the grades, behaviour and reputation improves.

No parent who cares about education and wants their DC to do as well as they possibly can at school will be prepared to ride out the transition period from rough to desirable, because that interim period will mean their own DC's education suffering and who the hell is going to do that? I'd do literally anything to avoid my DC going to a rough school with parents fighting outside the school gates. I'd home educate, I'd move, but my DC wouldn't go to that school.

No I don't think they can. Unfortunately children are influenced a lot by their peers and I wouldn't want to send my child to a school where the majority of kids don't value education and torment children that do well. And as much as its not politically correct to say, schools in deprived areas will have a high number of families who just don't care about education and spend their time disputing the rest of the children.

The school could be excellent at what they do and be full of wonderful motivated teachers, but parental influence is always going to be the biggest influence that children have. If there is a majority of disengaged and unsupportive parents at the school who don’t respect education, then that will make a huge difference to the culture in a school and I don’t think it can be overcome no matter how good the school is.

I am also in dread of my dc next year being sent to our local High school with this kind of reputation. older dc was lucky enough to get a place at the school in the next town with a much better reputation where the "nicer" families send there dc. No chance of dc 2 getting a place though now dc 1 has left and school is now massively oversubscribed anf we are out of catchment so I know dc2 will be allocated the local bad reputation school where all the "rough" kids go. Pupils from this school are barred from entering our local shops if in uniform because of the trouble they are known to cause. of course not all the pupils there will behave this way but they all get tared with the same brush so to speak.
I really think it can be hard to shake a bad reputation off.

Sorry but honestly, we scrimped hard to move away from a shitty town with shitty schools and mortgaged ourselves to the tits to get an outstanding primary & secondary school catchment, as well as being on the outer boundary for a selective grammar.

Unless we had absolutely no other choice, I'd do everything in my power to keep my DC out of the type of school you mention in your OP.

The school my DC are at has a very engaged and successful PTA, extra curricular activities, loads of trips and enrichment & most importantly, high behaviours standards and pleasant parents/children. We've essentially 'bought' a naice set of friends for DC and the best education we can without paying for private school.

I don't know any parents who'd be willing/happy to allow their child to attend the type of school you've described, other than my second cousin who doesn't work & doesn't give a shit about her DCs education...

I attend meetings with heads all over the county and they are all really struggling with behaviour since Covid. The "posher" ones really are at a loss and seeking support from their colleagues in tougher areas, who are more used to it!

Not unless there are enough staff willing to take on the role of substitute parents.
'Deprivation' and parental engagement are different things. There are for example certain pockets in 'deprived' areas of people who are engaged with their DC but for some reason or other cannot afford to live elsewhere as it's just too expensive. So they're trapped.
Parents fighting at school gates etc is a different level altogether.

Also I wouldn't say that 'poshness', behaviour or otherwise is the big indicator. Where DP went to school 'naice rural village' overlapping deprived area there was a lot of drug taking because there was nothing to do. Lots of people who didn't care about school cuz they'd just work on farms anyway.

However concerns with bullying, falling in with the 'wrong sort' etc were addressed. There were enough motivated people such that being focused on results didn't get you bullied, certainly nobody was getting stabbed.

Areas do gentrify but I dont know if the school can influence that.

My sons school was one people avoided until they couldnt afford to live anywhere else and the school is not avoided so much now. Less people move away to mot go there.

Forgot to say I will not accept the place at the bad reputation school if my dc is offered one. I will appeal to our preferred school. and home ed if needs be. I really cannot let dc2 down by sending them to that school it would break my heart.

I guess I mean be the kind of school that "nice" families want to send DC to.

That’s a strange measure of success!

I agree that some parents would never want to send their children to a socially diverse school, even if that school has more to offer than other local options.

And a school’s goal shouldn’t be ‘how can we attract more nice families’ it should be ‘how can we best educate, and meet the needs of, the children that we have’ .

A interesting situation near us - the town had two secondary schools - one excellent, high performing - in NE part of town with the catchment being all of the 'East' side which was very well-off, middle class etc. 2nd school, in SW corner of town was awful, terrible results and behaviour, not much parental support etc and drew from the 'West' side which was more estates, less affluent housing etc.

One year the council changed the catchments so that it was now based on North or South, rather than East or West. After the inevitable uproar and exodus of some families to the private sector or elsewhere what we ended up with (probably over a five year period) was that the formerly excellent school became Very Good/Good in terms of exams results, but maintained a lot of its former status and the formerly awful school rebranded and is now adequate to good, with some pockets of excellence. However, the head of the weaker school is on record as saying that essentially what they did was to divide and run it almost as a 'two-stream' school for the first few years of the transition.

I attend meetings with heads all over the county and they are all really struggling with behaviour since Covid. The "posher" ones really are at a loss and seeking support from their colleagues in tougher areas, who are more used to it!

Decline in behaviour at DC school was before covid when they lost the head and started to lose staff - though used to be top sets would avoid most of it no longer the case.

Having's said that I still expect my DC to get good GCSE and while many of their friends truant they don't - mainly I think because of the valuing education messages they've had for decades at home.

Still not been a positive experience for any of them - they don't feel supported and sometimes even safe in school and low expectations have at time been a real issue.

It will depend on the school though - and looking round at that school would probably be best thing to suggest to your friend.

I just think this one went down faster because of it's poorer catchment where as a better catchment may have had a slower decline though obviously I can't prove that.

Maybe "work successfully" with it's catchment might be a better way of thinking about/looking at it. Yes, it can. The problem is that the criteria used to measure schools do not take account of non conventional successes. Like being the only member of your family ever to reach SSLA still attending school regularly. Much better in terms of improving society than how many 9s rather that 7a the kids get.

Yes, I can see that there are other (arguably more important) ways for it to be successful for its students, but it will always be a school that gives parents like my friend nightmares?

It's a really tricky one, I have worked at a school with a 'tricky' catchment. I think you can have a well run school and have strict discipline in place but without the backing of parents it often means you will always have some children who are very challenging. Also attainment is likely to be lower for some student a because if home life but that doesn't mean those that attend from a more supportive background can't do well. A lot of the issue with tricky catchments is that the children in those area can have hard gone lives that spills into school life.

The thing is, once a school starts attracting “nice” families, they tend to colonise it. There are a couple of primaries near me (pretty much across the road from each other) and their intake is completely different. I was once speaking with someone and asked whether her child went to “nice school” (because she lived close enough). “Oh no, we don’t go there - it isn’t for us”.