Should all Grammar Schools be super selective?

[StressedaboutUni]

Rather than offering places based on living in a catchment area, surely grammar schools should simply admit by highest ranking? This would prevent local schools from losing all their bright pupils as some would not get into the grammar of it was purely based on ranking score. For example in Barnet, QE boys purely admits on highest ranking and all the local schools are doing really well compared to the average secondary school in England.
In addition, it would make Grammar schools even more meritocratic as you don’t need to live in the (often expensive) catchment area to get in.

I thought that was the case already. I live in South London where we don't have Grammar Schools but I know some children commute to some in Kent/Surrey areas.

There are grammars in Sutton & Kingston & some eg Tiffin you have to live within a certain distance.

there aren't Grammar schools in London - unless you mean the ones down in Kingston etc which is pretty much scraping the edges of London.

It may be outer London but it's still a London borough...

Plus there are some in North London

the 'Inner London' boroughs we don't have them.

But some schools in inner London still have streams where the highest scorers get places.

Kent isn’t going to change its system any time soon - it will simply cost too much money.

Grammar schools: What are they and why are they controversial? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34538222

This article is a few years old but explains the history. Basically, the Labour government ordered local councils to phase out grammars. Labour councils were quicker to act.

Their current stance is vague (a bit like most of their policies). They say they oppose opening of any new selective schools but will keep the existing ones. They can’t really declare they’d abolish grammar schools though, given their own leader attended a grammar school (which became private whilst he was there). Basically though the Labour Party do not like any system which gives anyone an advantage. They’d prefer everyone to be taught together to aim for everyone to be average.

@tubing "highest score" from what test?
My borough does a 'banding' test but it's nothing like the 11+ test.

Yep definitely a London borough given Ulez is happening. May not be central inner London but still gets the perks.

the other thing is sutton suffers for the grammars. A third of its mainstream high schools are grammars and it struggles to place everyone. Epsom schools take some but bulge years are common. DDs Nonsuch year is a bulge where 30 extra than normal came from Sutton. 2 others bulged that year and certainly at least one is September.

Further changing admission criteria (and I think one does have purely selective) would place further pressure.

plus it is tough on those who commute

@Quartz2208 what I kind of meant was the OP says grammar schools should be super selective not catchment based and I thought that was already the case because I have heard of children traveling from places like Brixton or Canary Wharf out to the Grammar Schools that are all on the edges of London in places like Kingston or Sutton.
They can't be catchment based if that is happening??

sorry, I mean if every year 6 pupils attend the 11+ exam, and depends on their score to do the unified admissions/Central Allocation, whatever the name.

What, even in counties with no grammar schools? It would seem a little harsh for a child in Devon or Herefordshire or Northumberland to have to take a test they could then not access a suitable school for if they passed?

How about we get rid of all selective state schools, problem solved! Most areas don't have grammar schools anyway, I've never lived in a grammar area and our kids cope perfectly well

The is broadly how it works in brum - with a bit of a catchment thiNg as well.

the only issue when my kids applied was the comprehensive schools were not “ comprehensive “ they had all the top pupils creamed off and and were effectively “ secondary Modern’s “ by default. Eg my girls are 6 school years apart so when we looked round for youngest the comps we’re celebrating the results of eldests peers - one girl we knew was the best in school with 5A* gcse - which is grand - but the grammars would have seen that as really not what they expected of their girls.

The Sutton grammars vary. Wilson’s is completely selective. Wallington Boys has 15 places for specific postcodes, Sutton Grammar and Wallington Girls split 50/50 no catchment and catchment. Nonsuch does that plus 30 Sutton places. Tiffin have an inner and outer catchment based on postcode.

Nonsuch has a parent bought bus coming in every day from Hounslow. The travel is tough and I wouldn’t recommend.

I would say the number living closer is increasing, all of DDs friends live fairly close

I would say the number living closer is increasing, all of DDs friends live fairly close

My friend in the area has said similar. I think the last few yrs everyone at Tiffin has lived in the inner area.

@Needmorelego you need to score high on the Wandsworth Test to get a Graveny place, the catchment is tiny.

@tubing Graveny isn't a grammar school though is it? And the Wandsworth test isn't the 11+.
How does it work?

@cantkeepawayforever Devon has super selective grammars.

Bucks more or less has a fully integrated system. You have to withdraw from the 11 plus. If you don’t, you take it. Admissions are co-ordinated. Makes total sense. There’s a grammar or two available whoever you live. Transport is at a cost if you go past another state secondary which are now called “all ability”. It’s better for Dc to take one exam or not bother at all.

It would be hugely expensive to change this system now. Who has got spare money for that?

@tubing I just looked at Graveny's website.
It says 70 places are available to highest scoring on the Wandsworth test.then 210 places available for the usual things like looked after children, distance etc.
So you don't have to score high. If you live next door you would probably get a place under 'distance' regardless of your score.

Yes it is a good school abd DD likes it there. But we are a 20-30 minute walk (depending if you cut across Nonsuch Park) and under 10 minute drive but it isn’t worth the travel and being away from things socially

@Needmorelego I don't understand? I didn't say it was a grammar school or that if you live next door you won't get in? I just said some schools in inner London still have streams where the highest scores get places 🤷🏻‍♀️. If you actually look at the data you can see how close you do have to live & the house prices are pretty prohibitive!

70 places for those scoring over 255
105 sibling places
97 distance places
Furthest distance 662 metres

@Quartz2208 I travelled a bit, went to one of the excellent Catholics.

@tubing ah sorry - I misunderstood what you said. Apologies 🙂

no probs

I think if grammar schools have to exist, it would be better for them to be extremely selective and only let in a very small % of all pupils, so that they have as little impact on the local schools.

If 1% of kids go to a super selective school - OK, fine, a few geniuses left. The schools where the rest go will still effectively function as comprehensives.

If 30% go to a selective school - the leftover school will feel like Failure Central, expectations will be low and it won’t attract or keep good teachers very easily.

Frankly, though, grammars shouldn’t exist. We should have comprehensives, and state-funded schools for kids with significant special needs who will not be able to cope well or learn much in mainstream.

I would be on board with creating a few magnet schools for bright-but-quirky kids who are academically very able but need specialist settings where they can function.