Should all Grammar Schools be super selective?

[StressedaboutUni]

Rather than offering places based on living in a catchment area, surely grammar schools should simply admit by highest ranking? This would prevent local schools from losing all their bright pupils as some would not get into the grammar of it was purely based on ranking score. For example in Barnet, QE boys purely admits on highest ranking and all the local schools are doing really well compared to the average secondary school in England.
In addition, it would make Grammar schools even more meritocratic as you don’t need to live in the (often expensive) catchment area to get in.

I'm in the south west and there are pupils who live in my village who attend the "local" Grammar school which is 20 miles away.

Yes, there are. London Boroughs of Bexley and Bromley spring to mind and there are others.

It’s also worth bearing in mind, btw, when looking at the ‘output’ of grammars, that by A level not all - often as few as 2/3, maybe less - of the results come from pupils who have been there since 11+.
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Ds left his West Kent Superselective last year. This certainly wasn't true of his year. Yes some joined at 16 but only 2 left.
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I have no idea what that formatting is all about.

Just looked up Pates Grammar school as an example.

PAN of 150 at 11+
220 places at sixth form
They say about 140 progress from GCSE (so around 10 leave) and 80 arrive.

So typically less than 2/3 of their A level results come from pupils who have been there pre-GCSE.

They don’t give information about A level grades from the two groups.

@cantkeepawayforever at my DC’s school, PAN 150. 13 left after GCSEs in 2021. Of those 13 only two went on to non-selective schools. 8 went to highly selective state sixth form colleges, 2 to highly selective private schools and one became a racing driver.

@Turmerictolly again outer boroughs though. Bromley is a London borough but is originally in Kent (and I think still classed as Kent for somethings?). Bexley is right on the edges too.
The 'inner' boroughs like Lambeth, Southwark - even ones like Kensington and Chelsea don't have Grammar Schools.

I know it will vary by school. It’s just worth looking at rather than taking the headline results at face value.

You can usually see the value add score for each school’s A-levels on the government’s website (not for this years results potentially though because Covid). Pate’s from memory has positive value-add for A-levels based on expected progress of all pupils calculated from their GCSE scores. I think it’s typically ‘very good’ which is top 20 percent or so of progress scores.

@Turmerictolly all London Grammar Schools are in the outer London boroughs - places that historically weren't part of London.

@cantkeepawayforever that was for you

It’s not so much the value add that I am interested in- more the extent to which a school’s ‘headline’ results at A level (often used to draw in pupils at 11+) are potentially inflated / propped up by those they recruit at 16 from other schools, if that makes sense.

At Pates, it looks as if 1/3 of the results are obtained by pupils who were at the school for sixth form only, and I would be interested to see how these results compared with those who had 5 additional years at the school.

Regarding movement at Sixth Form, this can be for various reasons. For example, lots of high achieving girls move from Newstead Wood to St Olave’s in Orpington, especially if they want to do Maths/Science/Medicine. Some girls move from Tonbridge Grammar to e.g. Judd because they want to do A levels instead of IB (and vice versa). Some boys move to St Olave’s to do more language based A levels at Newstead. It is really not just about ability but preferences as to uni courses, actually changing school for a new experience etc after being in a single sex environment. I think changing at Sixth Form if you are confident and did well is great preparation for university so lots of high achievers will do that regardless. It isn’t about schools shopping in better achieving pupils (although St Olave’s, for example, does often get rumoured to be stealing the best Newstead Wood girls).
In Bexley, Bexley Grammar do IB, for example. Pre IB getting in is hard as the catchment is tiny compared to the other Bexley grammars (so either very local or top 180 performers get in pre GCSE).

At Sixth Form level, many schools are selective anyway so if a child achieves very well at GCSE so many options open up and often they are more mature to travel further as well.

I’ve 2x DC’s at my local, catchment grammar. We have kids coming into our catchment area from miles away and taking our kids places. It’s really not OK.
We live 5 miles away with no direct bus route (country lanes with no pavements and currently 100’s of HS2 lorries every day so unsafe to cycle), private coach @ £756 per child per term - so £2k pa. So many parents drive as it’s cheaper, throws out the original OP’s theory that it’s better for the environment, it really isn’t. I don’t totally agree with Grammar schools, although I’m so glad DC aren’t in my local comp - yes, makes me a hypocrite. IMO all areas should have local schools, for local kids that can provide an excellent education for every child, starting with those with learning difficulties/SEN.

The school system is a mess.

@TwoPointFourCatsAndDogs All Bucks grammars have clearly defined catchment areas and the vast majority are in Bucks. If you look at how Bucks allocated places, you will often see “allocated in catchment up to 7.2 miles” or similar. There is plenty of evidence to say that non catchment in Bucks is heavily shrinking. Some take a few DC out of catchment (MK, Herts, Oxfordshire and Berks) but it’s because Bucks doesn’t like unfilled grammar places. However catchment means Bucks CC get in first above non catchment. This means 121 in Bucks should get a grammar place somewhere!!

They can decide to allow a lower pass mark occasionally. So sometimes 120 is in at the review stage. Other years it’s 121 and not much flexibility but appeal DC at lower scores can, and are, accommodated. They often push intake up over PAN. I don’t see huge numbers of our county DC now. It’s also to do with fair access. Fsm are prioritised and require a lower mark I think.

I would prefer to see all schools coaching. It’s long been about money spent by parents. It shouldn’t be. Fsm is a start but it’s crude. All Dc should have access to coaching. Or perhaps take marks away from privately educated DC. However the richer state parents will still pay for coaching and advantage. Better for all to have it, but who pays?

Taking a coach every day is not as good as walking to school, surely?

sure!
BUT, what if, you have a very smart kid, but there is only one very shity school in your local area. And you know your kid can take a coach every day to the next town for the very very very good grammar school?
what would be your choice?

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/30-best-secondary-schools-london-26379267

Many of the most coveted London state secondary schools are selective one way or another -religion, grammar or catchment… - and of course many of the top private schools in the country are also in London or within the M25. So many of the top uni places go to kids from this area of the country.

@happyfishcoco - regarding underperforming local state schools and smart bookish kids, it isn’t just that they would get bored in some schools, they can get bullied for being too keen, right? So an engaged parent with such a kid will do all they can to get them into a selective environment, whatever it takes.

some people often said grammar school should not be exciting.
they think grammar school is not fair. only rich people's kids can get in.
but the truth is, the catchment area of good state schools is very expensive.
if no grammar school, the poor family never have a chance to get into a good school.

Ds school is Catholic and grammar. There's no catchment and you just have to be Catholic and able to pass the exam and get there every day. It doesn't affect the local schools. It's a grammar school area anyway (trafford) but the consortium grammar schools have a scoring system that gives you more marks if you're more local.

Admittedly, I wouldn't have been happy with the non-grammar options. Others have been OK with them and the system works OK where we are.

I agree with this. Grammars aren't fair and have serious drawbacks. However, comps aren't fair either. It can be cheaper to go private than buy in the catchment of the best London state secondary schools. The inequality in the state school system is vast and only partially addressed via pupil premium funding.

The only 'fair' system would be a lottery for all state schools so there was no way wealth could game / influence the outcome. All schools would likely be equally good, particularly if an element of fair ability banding was included with the lottery so each school got a fair share of strong and weak students.

They trialed this in Brighton though and parents hated it as they had no control...

If all schools were to adopt unified admissions, it could have the following impacts:

1. Elimination of unfairness: Schools' admission criteria and procedures may be biased towards certain types of students, which can affect students' chances of admission. Unified admissions can eliminate this unfairness and provide equal opportunities for all students to enter their preferred schools.
2. Increase in school competitiveness: With unified admissions, schools may have to improve their teaching quality and service levels to attract more students. This can increase the competition among schools and ultimately result in better education for students.

Yes, it was my child's only chance. He was coming from a lone parent, low income household. He started school as a very bright, young for the year child who was keen to learn, but was having issues with disengagement by mid primary. He was a child who would not have 'done well anywhere'.

there is no such place can be 100% equality,
I will love to have selective schools to increase the % of equality.

as other pp said, no money for tutoring, but £10 exercise is enough to send the very bright kid into a super-selective school.

that's it!

“provide equal opportunities for all students to enter their preferred schools.”

but preferred schoola are, in part at least, a function of distance. So I don’t see how eliminating distance/catchments helps.