Is it worth going 'all out' for high GCSE or A levels?

[mids2019]

I work in the public sector and recently having been involved in recruitment the applications I see make no mention of A levels and although university attended is stated there are instructions to not bias against any university and only consider degree classification.

I don't know how widespread this practice is but there definitely seems to be a focus on widening participation and to some extent this means widening the range of degrees allowable for various professions (and by default reducing minimum A level requiremnts).

time will tell on the ultimate consequence of this strategy but for school children now is it worth it honest to tell them that a high number of high grade academic qualifications will lead to significant advantage in employment prospwcts?

the educational arena is now complicated with a range of vocational qualifications which public sector employers are now told to have equivalence with more academic subjects.

generally your highest level of qualification trumps all lesser qualifications...but each layer of qualification will determine progession to your next ...so most A-levels/B-techs have minimum grade requirements. I agree that there are more diversification of options/routes now....we are def looking at B-tech options instead of A levels,, I certainly don't think my 15 yr old needs to do 11 or more GCSE's as some private /grammar schools push people to do and i wasn't going to make her do a language GCSE which she hates , solely to be acceptable to a Russell Group uni. I think the picture is changing and there are other non-academic qualities that lead to success .

No university asks for a language GCSE @2022again

How on earth do you come to that conclusion based on this thread? As many previous posters have pointed out, each academic qualification is really only a gateway to the next level – universities are only interested in GCSEs in as far as most applicants don't yet have their actual A level grades, only predicted ones. Once you have A levels, a lot of people won't care about your GCSEs; once you have a degree a lot of people won't care about your A levels; and once you have a Masters a lot of people won't care about your undergraduate degree.

The exceptions seem to be (some) law firms and accountants.

I'm an employer, not a law firm or an accountancy firm, and A levels matter to me and to every other employer I know. If you have maths A level, or if all your A levels are a or A*, it matters.
And conversely if you have a 'good' degree but bad A levels, I will be more concerned.

Is it "worth" it in purely practical terms? No, probably not. Most employers don't really care that much about exam grades or university names any more, they just want to know if you are actually going to be any good at the job. And academic performance isn't necessarily the best indicator.

However, that's beside the point as far as I'm concerned. I never taught dd to try her best so that she could get a particular type or level of job at the end of it all. For me, it is about her having a sense of pride in her achievements and being the best that she can be. That is a mindset that I think will help her further down the line, regardless of what she does, far more than the kind of transactional "work hard so that you can get a good job" arrangement that you seem to be referring to. Intrinsic motivation vs extrinsic, I guess.

FWIW, dd has chosen a career path - medicine - where good grades are still pretty essential, so I suppose the advantage of working hard from the start is that it keeps more options open to you. But ultimately, I think that's just a side benefit. I think the real reason should simply be about fulfilling potential and the sense of satisfaction and self esteem that you get from knowing that you've done the very best that you can.

I think good grades achieved through hard work teach you a good life lesson tbh, if nothing else, and bolster self esteem which as a teen is so important.

I have 20 plus years experience in my field of work which trumps any pre-degree qualifications. However when I applied for jobs fresh out of university A levels and that I had a top grade in Maths & English at GCSE were of interest to recruiters.

I think I would get quite defensive if I had to explain now why I had no A stars at A level. A stars didn’t exist in my day and only the top 11% got an A, so I think my B isn’t too shabby. In 2019 (before TAGs) it was 25.2% getting an A or A star.

Why? A degree is likely to be much more egalitarian than A levels, and exponentially more likely to be a true illustration of an applicant's academic ability than A levels, which can be subject to all sorts of extraneous factors.

Furthermore surely a recent graduate's degree tells you way more about how they are performing now, as opposed to how they were performing 3 (or 4) years earlier…?

Two reasons. First, just my experience over the last decade. I have hired quite a few people with 2.1s from very good universities who have been unable to write clearly or do basic manipulation of numbers. I do tests now, but in general if they have good broad A levels or equivalent internationally they are more likely to generally perform well.
Second, degrees can be narrow and in my company I need people who are broadly educated.
Mind you I’m always choosing between people with good degrees - so it’s how they compare to each other. And this is for graduate entrants, not for people who have already been successful in their career.

Anyway, it’s obviously fine if other people don’t select that way. I’m sure there are lots of different views out there. I’m just saying that my advice to teenagers would be to try and get good GCSEs and A levels, and not just because it gets you to the next stage.

Yes if you want to do Medicine, dentistry or Oxbridge. Otherwise focus on the knowledge needed, not the grade

no it’s not a requirement but schools encourage kids to do the English Baccalaureate (which is used as a performance indicator for schools) and includes a language,sciences and a social science on the basis that this is looked on as indicator of academic achievement by Russell Group uni’s ….again it’s about perception of what indicates future academic ability from someone’s exam history when in reality it may indicate more what school type and social background you come from

My son needs A*AA to get on the degree course he wants. Maybe once he has his degree his a levels will never be mentioned again, but at the moment, they matter. S

Second, degrees can be narrow and in my company I need people who are broadly educated.

Fair enough, I can see how that's a factor in your particular profession then. But I think that's unusual tbh – a lot of professions, from architects to nurses, engineers to surveyors, publishing to teaching, will require a relevant degree in the first place, so the narrowness of the degree is actually the point. Studying 1 subject for 3 years is going to make you much more knowledgeable about it than studying 3 subjects for 2 years.

You will also be missing out on lots of very clever kids who did less well at A level because they went to a shit school or were brought up in a less than ideal home environment but who come into their own when they have the same access to resources as everyone else. That aspect is implicitly acknowledged by the existence of contextual offers, and it is supported by universities' lack of interest in A level grades beyond under-graduate level.

It depends. If you have been at a failing comprehensive and dropped all languages that will not be an issue but if you are at Eton, SP or another independant/public questions will be asked, again dependant on the course you chose to apply for

I teach at university level. It's worth working at GCSE's and A Levels because they prepare you for university level work - which is no dawdle. If you haven't mastered the previous steps you're going to have a miserable time and might drop out - which is a big wanted of effort ans money.

I agree with the points that @prh47bridge and @Dobby123456 have made. I also think that there is no longer a career for life and it is far easier to change careers if you have a degree (1st or 2.1) and GCSEs in both Maths and English minimum C but preferably as high a grade as you are able. Coupled with a couple of years experience. This gives you the most options.

I would think this depends on profession where some professions put more weight on A levels than others. Personally to me A levels are a standard that can be used for consistent comparison. The problem with degree classification is that we get into the 'are all degrees equal' argument and I don't think degree classification on its own is enough information.

I know employers are increasingly becoming more diverse and inclusive but I don't think hiding relevant information from recruitment teams is the way to do this.

I was wondering if the teaching profession puts high store on A levels and university attended when there is a huge recruitment crisis?

In teaching you usually have to teach for at least 20 mins and provide planning etc. Plus 2 or so interviews maybe plus one with kids. So you can tell a lot from the interview, although good grades are helpful to get you in the door. Depends on the school as well, someone with just c grades may be very very good at behaviour management and inspiring kids in the deprived area. Another school may prefer excellent subject knowledge and not so many people skills.

DS has been applying for graduate jobs. He hasn't been able to apply for quite a few because they cite minimum A level scores. Not law. He now wishes he had worked harder...

Ds is in his second year at uni. He applied for a summer internship and the first sifting stage was literally name, email address, GCSEs and A level grades.

I have two very academic children, they understood that good GCSE grades make A levels easier. The higher the A level grades then no uni is closed to you before you even apply. No frustration at wanting X uni but knowing you haven't got time now to bring your grades up. The higher the A level grades the more chance you have of having a good work ethic to see you through your degree.

They both know that jobs are not for life, that you can step sideways and so all those previous achievements may count so always do your absolute best and know that it may well matter 20 years down the line. I have friends in their 40s now resitting maths GCSE to be able to get jobs or move up in their current workplace due to requirements.

He applied for a summer internship and the first sifting stage was literally name, email address, GCSEs and A level grades.

At one of the universities DD looked at they told us that the year abroad option was only available to students with high A level grades and a high pass at the end of the first two years.

I agree with this. It is not just getting good grades. We are forgetting the whole point of secondary school and sixth form is to teach a student how to learn in a way which translates to rigour, accuracy and good grades. This skill does not leave you. It is transferable and is absolutely vital in the working world where things change all the time and you are constantly on a learning curve.

The GCSEs are the first hard nationwide exam covering a huge breadth of subjects taken under exam conditions. It is a shock to most 16 year old systems. Those that get shaken out of their complacency and prepare hard for them set themselves up for success at A Level and beyond.

Definitely go for gold (or the best you can).

Personally to me A levels are a standard that can be used for consistent comparison.

Except they're not. The exams themselves may be standardized but pupils' ability to access them is not. Honestly does nobody on this thread have any knowledge or understanding as to how different DCs' experience of school can be? Do you really think an inner city kid from a poverty-stricken area has the same access to A level resources as a middle-class kid at St Paul's or Tiffin? Why do you think universities make contextual offers? Clearly they don't think A levels offer a consistent comparison…

I do agree with you @mids2019 that degree classification varies and it's hard to judge its worth on its own. But the answer to that is to conduct one or more interviews, run your own tests, ask candidates to lesson plan, or prepare a presentation, or give a talk, or design something, or all of the above.

The only thing I'd add is, it is important to have a life outside studying and working to pay the rent. Since lockdown and cost of living crisis, we're seeing a massive rise in young people suffering from bad mental health and just generally a lack of motivation and engagement. Doesn't have to be expensive - join a choir, volunteer in a soup kitchen, go hill walking - basically, anything that doesn't involve getting drunk, which increases depression. Again, it's not just about CV points, it's about general wellbeing.

So many schools drill to the test now with "self quizzing" every night for every year of secondary school.

They get some good results but not sure it translates to ability to research, learn etc.