St Paul's, Westminster, City - does DS with SEN have what it takes?

[ItsRainingTacos79]

Looking for some advice on how to support DS10.

Background - He is autistic and has DCD/dyspraxia (writing is significantly hampered so he types). He's currently in Y5 at an independent prep school. He comes across as ‘sloppy’ in his work but generally does well at school/exams with little effort. He is bright, although lacks motivation and focus (used to be described as lazy until he was diagnosed). He comes into his own on CAT4 tests - scores around 134. Generally a happy boy, lots of friends, popular in his year.

We are based in London (NW) and DS will sit for the local selective schools. He does well in maths, science and factual subjects. He is fine with English grammar but struggles with inference in comprehension and creative writing - usually achieves average grades in these areas.

I’m sorry, this is long but I will get to the point, I promise.

DS’s Headteacher recently suggested he should sit for some of the super selective schools due to his CAT scores (St Paul’s, Westminster, City). While it is reassuring to hear, and it would be amazing if he was offered a place, I’m not sure how these schools work around children with SEN. DS doesn’t have the ‘polish’ in his work as most children sitting for such schools do. He refuses to let me get him a tutor and is generally reluctant to do any extra work beyond school homework. Even in maths, he refuses to show his calculations, so he makes careless mistakes. He is also not at all sporty or musical - which a lot of super selective schools do look for.

So my question is / is it worth his while to sit for the super selective schools? Would he get a look in? He won’t score highly in English writing and comprehension and even in maths he doesn’t show calculations so he is likely to miss marks. He’s not into sports and doesn’t play an instrument. In fact he does no extra curricular activities, he just doesn’t want to. Do I bother to apply?

I’m tempted to say no. Unless the prep regularly send DC to these schools and 100% know they will suit your DS. Therefore I’d drill down on why the school thinks DS is a good match for these schools, given your reservations. Will his English comprehension, that you mention, give him problems? I would try and have a meeting with the Head and see what SEN provision is available in each school that meets your DS’s requirements. Is DS up for numerous exams and interviews? Some DC find this stressful too.

Also please remember that other schools have bright DC as pupils. What sort of school does he want?

Thank you @TizerorFizz for taking the time to respond. I had never considered applying to those schools for DS as he doesn't have the same work ethic most of the children who attend them. I have another DS who currently attends the junior school of one of the aforementioned but he's very different in character (sporty and academically focused).

DS's prep school sends a handful of boys to these schools each year and even our SENCO suggested the same schools and tells me they are quite supportive of children with SEN. As you said, I should get in touch with the schools in question and speak to their SENCOs. The last thing I'd want is for DS to be struggling and not enjoying school.

DS himself wants to sit for the local selectives and that's where I see him fitting in too. But in light of the recent conversations with school, I'm wondering if I should let him sit for one or two of the others and see where we get.

@ItsRainingTacos79
You have said there’s a difference in your DCs. I would therefore talk to DC and SEN as we said. Then you get a better picture. If he wants to, go for it. If it’s going to cause upset and stress for months, why do it? He’s got standard entrance tests as well but only you know whether he’s ok with more. For what gain though? Will
there be one other then bragging rights?

Yes, I agree - I personally don't feel the schools are the right fit for him and happy for him to sit for the local selectives with one or two back ups. I was just thrown a bit when the schools were suggested. Thank you for your input, I'm glad it's not just me thinking the schools may not be the right place for DS.

@ItsRainingTacos79
Well obviously I don’t know him but as you have doubts, maybe trust your instincts? We do like to think our Dc will be ok everywhere but we chose a less academic school for DD and she didn’t feel continually pressurised to do well. She just fitted in snd enjoyed it. She also very strongly wanted this school!

Trust your instincts. Based on what you've said, I don't think these schools would be right for him (I used to teach at one of them).

I know St Pauls, I don't think he'd make it.

Thank you @wp65 - it's good to know.

Just one question - how much importance do schools put on CAT scores anyway?

Thank you @WhoStoleMyTiddyOggy

I don't want him to sit additional exams unnecessarily if he's not going to make the cut. I know the selection process can be brutal.

There is no harm in visiting and, if he is motivated to have a go and you have ha an opportunity to speak to the SEN staff and reach a positive conclusion, then you can put him forward. If he isn't particularly enamoured by them or if you are not convinced that he will get het support he needs then you will feel confident that you have made the right decision in not applying.

We’ve just been through this with a very similarly minded child. I think the schools were actually quite good from a SEN perspective and one especially certainly took his SEN into account in a positive way based on the feedback they gave.

Regarding the extra exams, all three use ISEB for first round, which he may already be taking for other independent schools. Obviously if he gets through to the second round of all three that would be an additional amount of exam stress but if he’s getting that far, it was still probably the right decision to apply.

For us, DS didn’t get through but he has learnt a valuable lesson in that he now knows that he needs to work hard and can’t just sail through without any effort so I don’t regret applying. But equally I now know that as clever as he is, these weren’t the right schools for him.

@Genevieva you're right, no harm in finding out a bit more about each school. It was only when our SENCO thought I shouldn't write them off, I thought it post on here. I might see if I can book some tours with DS.

@karmakameleon thank you for sharing. That's interesting re: ISEB, I haven't actually got that far yet in working out which schools and whether we go for 11+ or 13+. Lots to consider. Hope your DS is happy where he is and doing well. I wish there was a way of convincing my DS that he only needs to put in a tiny bit of effort to pull it off, given how well he does without any prep. But he wants to do the bare minimum required because he already feels ahead of his peers. I will find out a bit more and see what we do, seems like a waste of potential but I have to be sure he's comfortable. Thank you again.

My DS was similar to yours at that age. Now in quite a selective school but not one of those three, probably one tier down. He didnt sit for two of them but sat for City and didnt get in. I spoke to the SEN coordinator on an open day and got a feel for the school then. I think he probably wasnt a good fit for them (although his IQ/cats scores are right at the very top and he is identified by his current school as having potential for all grade 9s at GCSE. This is because I didnt get the impression City had much SEN support, they seemed unenthusiastic about pupils who type (ie try hard to get them doing extra writing courses before they would consider letting them type), it seemed from the Q and As on the open day and answers from the head and pupils to have a very hardworking, driven culture and high homework expectation. The other two on your list may be slightly different. Westminster has a reputation for taking quirky boys but an Ed Psyche warned me they have to sink or swim with little or no SEN support.

Your son should definitely give those schools a try! Don’t waste his talent !

Also remember that the head of the pre
Is running a business
If your ds gets in that's excellent marketing fodder for him in terms of what the school has "achieved" when it sounds like it's your ds will have done it all. . Whether those super selective schools will suit your ds long term only you will know, but it won't be the head of the prep schools problem if it doesn't work out but they can still claim they got your ds into the school.....

@AnneSinn Talent is not wasted at any good school. Do you still think that the best universities only take people from a few top schools? Obviously not. Ditto with jobs. Parents have to consider all issues when deciding what to do. SEN being a big deciding factor and school ethos.

@Snapdragonsoup thank you for sharing and well done to your DS.

That's very interesting what you say about about SEN support at City. It's the school that our head and also our SENCO specifically raved about. They felt that with DS's grades in areas other than English plus his CAT scores he'd fit in and be supported. It would be a disaster if he were expected to do extra handwriting as he's had years of intervention already and started touch typing on the recommendation of a paeds consultant. I'll specifically ask about that so thank you for your feedback.

@sequincardi yes they're a business after all and leavers' destinations are of great interest for prospective parents.

This came up in my feed and didn't want to read and run as we were in a similar predicament last year!
It might be worth speaking to a woman called Jo Austin. She's an expert in these exams and knows the schools very well - we looked at St Paul's last summer and so she did an assessment with our son which looked at where he was academically, but also looked at whether he was mature enough to go to a school like that and whether his concentration etc was good enough. Her assessment and honest advice was invaluable and much more in depth (and trustworthy!) than what his school were telling us! Her company is called Tayberry Tuition and they really are experts with these kinds of exams

Thank you @Lovetogarden2022. Did your DS sit for the assessments in the end?

No - it was dependent on a house move with my DH's job which the company flip flopped on! We did a good 4 months of prep with Jo for those exams though, and we still use her for both our son and our older daughter.

@AnneSinn I wish it were that simple. The SEN angle adds so many layers of complexities.

I hope you find the schools to apply to that will be a good fit for your son, one way or another. I do wonder if 13+ could be a good option if things like showing maths working are an issue at the moment; a bit of extra maturity before entrance assessments can allow them to better appreciate what is important and why. (though in our case the issue was more around communication skills for interviews, DS didn't do himself justice age 10 and 11 but by the end of year 7 that was changing).

If your head suggested to apply, I'd try it, as they should know best and be realistic. Your DS clearly has the potential to do well. It's still almost 1 year till the exams. In that space of time, my dd (also ASD) matured quiet dramatically. Does your DS want to go to one of the schools, and would he be prepared to do some old papers, working on accuracy and showing his work? My dd only really improved in these areas about 4 weeks before the exams once she started doing old papers under timed conditions. She did about 2 to 3 papers/week for 4 weeks, focusing on accuracy and showing work. We went in the end for a top scholarship at a more mixed school rather than accepting a place at a very selective school, mainly because of the money, but also because we just preferred the school, and many less selective schools will have top sets equal to your typical Westminster cohort. So you can always apply to a range of schools and decide further down the line.

Thank you @GrassWillBeGreener. I do hope we see something similar in terms of growing in maturity by the end of this year - whether he sits for these schools or not.

Thank you @NellyBarney for your helpful advice. Having had the chat with the head and the SENCO, there is a part of me that is curious about going down this route, no harm in trying. DS knows of the schools but has his sights set on the local selective schools as his friend are sitting for them. He's not too fussed whether he sits for a few more schools which makes me think it is worth a shot and we'll cross that bridge if we get to any offers.

Prep wise, DS will only let me do short, sharp bursts of work with him. I can't see him cooperating with past papers (although we do use the standard Bond, Atom, GL etc) and suggestions of a tutor never goes down well - very slap dash in his approach and always rushing. It's exam technique I need to work on with him more than anything for maths as he's confident in the methods/concepts. Most of his mistakes are down to rushing and not bothering to write down calculations.

English creative writing and comprehension is not so straight forward but over the years he has learned to categorise figurative language and has a 'stock' of formulaic answers which he draws upon to fit the most common question types.

Well done to your DD on her amazing achievement and I hope she's enjoying school life. DS and I are both quite positive about our local selective schools and 'back up' schools so there is no huge pressure.

If you don't mind me asking - how does your DD do with English? Does she have similar struggles of reading between the lines or writing detailed story settings?

Thank you again for taking the time to share your thoughts/experience.