Daughter didn’t get first choice school - tips

misslooloo · 2023-03-01T08:32:19+00:00

Like thousands of others this morning, my daughter didn’t get her first choice high school place, which is an oversubscribed local school. She is understandably devastated. We are going to appeal and I would love to hear from other people who have successfully appealed. We live equidistant from both schools, although the one she didn’t get into is easier to reach by public transport. She wants to study German at GCSE and this particular school doesn’t offer that option. Any tips please?! I’m sure there are many people on MN who need these tips today.

AnnoyedByAlfieBear · 01/03/2023 08:42

Get on the waiting list as soon as you can. There's always lots of movement.

Sirzy · 01/03/2023 08:44

Get on the waiting list for the preferred school.

most important factor is staying positive about the school she has got a place at. Big up to her what is great about it.

unless there is some sort of procedural mistake in allocation of the places then an appeal is unlikely to work

EduCated · 01/03/2023 08:53

Secondary appeals are about the balance of prejudice - you’re aiming to show that it’s worse for your daughter not to attend your preferred school than it is for the school to have to take an extra pupil.

The GCSE German is the right sort of track. Is there anything to demonstrate her interest? Are there any other subjects or extracurriculars the school offers which are relevant to your daughter, which the other school doesn’t?

In time the other part is understanding the school’s case not to admit her - they will usually talk about overcrowding etc. This is where knowing whether the school has previously been over PAN in any year group becomes useful, and you can ask whether they have had any accidents they can attribute to overcrowding etc.

The panel will then weigh the cases against each other. Some schools are able to make very strong cases, some much less so, so there’s no hard and fast rule as to what will win an appeal - what is ‘enough’ for one panel/school wouldn’t be elsewhere, and vice versa.

emmylousings · 01/03/2023 08:58

Sorry to be negative, but myself and others I know personally have been through the appeals system and we all felt that it's a faux process, to make parents feel as if they are able to respond, but in reality the school has lawyers who have made a detailed case to the LA, that for lots of valid reasons, excepting higher numbers of pupils than they want,is detrimental to the other pupils there. The actual panel hearing felt like a pointless tick box exercise.

Original poster

misslooloo · 01/03/2023 09:01

EduCated · 01/03/2023 08:53

Secondary appeals are about the balance of prejudice - you’re aiming to show that it’s worse for your daughter not to attend your preferred school than it is for the school to have to take an extra pupil.

The GCSE German is the right sort of track. Is there anything to demonstrate her interest? Are there any other subjects or extracurriculars the school offers which are relevant to your daughter, which the other school doesn’t?

In time the other part is understanding the school’s case not to admit her - they will usually talk about overcrowding etc. This is where knowing whether the school has previously been over PAN in any year group becomes useful, and you can ask whether they have had any accidents they can attribute to overcrowding etc.

The panel will then weigh the cases against each other. Some schools are able to make very strong cases, some much less so, so there’s no hard and fast rule as to what will win an appeal - what is ‘enough’ for one panel/school wouldn’t be elsewhere, and vice versa.

It was her German teacher who brought it up during her parents evening a couple of weeks ago. She asked me which school my daughter had applied for, saying do you realise XXX school offers German, while YYY does not? She’s been offered a place at YYY. According to her teacher my daughter is a “talented linguist” and I know she really enjoys it.

Thank you for this. Very useful.

OP posts:

EduCated · 01/03/2023 09:12

So the fact she is already learning it and would like to Continue is a decent point to make.

emmylousings It’s a shame that’s been your experience, but there are successful appeals each year. Obviously they vary in number from school to school and by local area - some areas are much more pushed for places than others.

PanelChair · 01/03/2023 09:18

Please don’t listen to some of the negativity here. Disappointed parents may feel that appeals are a “faux process”, but they are not. They are governed by the appeals code - so the panel has to work within those parameters - but parents can and do win appeals where they can satisfy the panel that the prejudice to their child in not attending would be greater than the prejudice to the school in catering for an extra pupil.

Access to GCSE German is a good argument, especially if you can show that your child is already learning German (and so this isn’t something you’ve just plucked out of the school prospectus). You would need some evidence here, such as a letter from the German teacher.

It’s impossible to say whether this will be enough on its own to win an appeal. It might not, so think about other things the school offers which would benefit your child.

You can also look at the other side of the equation. Ask for numbers in each year group at the preferred school. If there are year groups with more than the published admission number, it helps you argue that the school has been coping with additional pupils and could do so again for your child.

prh47bridge · 01/03/2023 09:24

emmylousings · 01/03/2023 08:58

Sorry to be negative, but myself and others I know personally have been through the appeals system and we all felt that it's a faux process, to make parents feel as if they are able to respond, but in reality the school has lawyers who have made a detailed case to the LA, that for lots of valid reasons, excepting higher numbers of pupils than they want,is detrimental to the other pupils there. The actual panel hearing felt like a pointless tick box exercise.

It is not a faux process. I'm sorry you felt it was. Around 21% of appeals are successful, despite the fact that many parents don't understand what is required for an appeal and hence make cases that cannot succeed. The hearing is not a pointless tick box exercise. It is the most important part of the process. The school's case (generally not drawn up by lawyers) is usually enough to convince the panel that there will be some disadvantage to the school from admitting another pupil. It is rarely enough to convince the panel that it is not possible to admit any more pupils.

prh47bridge · 01/03/2023 09:28

Agree with PanelChair and EduCated. Wanting to study German is a good argument, but I would look for other arguments to strengthen your case.

Since no-one else has said it, remember to accept the place offered. If you reject it the LA is not under any obligation to come up with an alternative. Rejecting the offered place will not help at appeal and could harm your case.

Original poster

misslooloo · 01/03/2023 10:35

PanelChair · 01/03/2023 09:18

Please don’t listen to some of the negativity here. Disappointed parents may feel that appeals are a “faux process”, but they are not. They are governed by the appeals code - so the panel has to work within those parameters - but parents can and do win appeals where they can satisfy the panel that the prejudice to their child in not attending would be greater than the prejudice to the school in catering for an extra pupil.

Access to GCSE German is a good argument, especially if you can show that your child is already learning German (and so this isn’t something you’ve just plucked out of the school prospectus). You would need some evidence here, such as a letter from the German teacher.

It’s impossible to say whether this will be enough on its own to win an appeal. It might not, so think about other things the school offers which would benefit your child.

You can also look at the other side of the equation. Ask for numbers in each year group at the preferred school. If there are year groups with more than the published admission number, it helps you argue that the school has been coping with additional pupils and could do so again for your child.

Thank you so much for this.

Does each school or LEA have their own appeals code? Where can I find it?

OP posts:

PanelChair · 01/03/2023 11:08

For England, the appeals code is published by the DfE. There will be similar (but not identical) codes in other parts of the U.K.

Pythonesque · 01/03/2023 11:21

Good luck with waiting list / appeals, hope it works out for you.

I would say, if you can, find out what options there might be for her to continue learning German out of school - if she's already showing signs of being good at languages then keeping going with German and starting another language at school could work out well for her. And at this point you can suggest that as an alternative to your daughter so she can feel positive about the offered school for the time being.

Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis · 01/03/2023 11:28

I’m sorry she’s so upset. There’s good advice above about the appeal process so I wanted to add you need to find the positives of the school she has got, in case you cannot change it. Are some of her friends going there? Do they offer any extra curricular clubs she would enjoy? Even is the uniform better, I know that’s superficial but any positives need highlighting.
Do they offer any other languages? DC school do Spanish and French as well as German.