Subject Complaint

[sheep73]

We have 2 boys who are at a private day junior school. They love the school and enjoy most subjects. They are making good progress in all but one area where they say they are spinning their wheels. One academic subject, which they both have an aptitude for, they have the same teacher. They both have similar stories about their lessons - teacher shouts alot, the lessons are boring and very slow.

Last year I went to talk to the teacher about DS1 and said can we pick up the pace and the teacher admitted they had been going slow as it was a mixed ability class. This year the class is divided into 2 so same teacher but slightly faster however due to last year's slowness they are already disadvantaged and not where they could be. Preparation for senior school entry exams has been poor in this subject.

My concern is we will also go through the same process with DS2 with the same teacher and face the same disappointment. School days are very long so we literally do not have time for a tutor and I am already paying school fees!

We have been to see the HT to tell her of our concerns and said both children need more pace. HT refuted some of the things the children had told me but I have checked with other families and found these to be true and emailed HT after the meeting to tell her so. HT indicated she understood our issue but made no concrete promises.

It is a month since the meeting with the HT and we have heard nothing. No change to either DS' lessons. What should I do now? DS1 will soon leave for their senior school but DS2 has a couple of years to go. I do not want DS2 bored by the same teacher for the next 2 years. Should I email the HT and ask what is happening and what their plan is? Request another meeting? I feel as though our concern has not been taken seriously / addressed.

What do you want to happen?? The head to tell the teacher to stop being boring??!

The teacher isn't there to entertain your children. They're there to learn. Is the subject particularly boring???

If your children have aptitude for the subject, then yes, it might be a bit boring for them. With a wide variety of ability, sometimes the pace has to match the majority of the children's ability.

Are they given any extra tasks to challenge them?

If you want more academic challenge, contact the teacher and/or head and ask for more academic challenge.

Calling up to moan that your children find the teacher boring is the sort of thing that sounds a bit silly and the same if you're saying that the parents have been gossiping and also say the same thing.

LolaSmiles I didn't tell the HT our children find the lessons boring - I said I'm concerned they are not making the progress they could. I already spoke to the teacher last year so she is aware already. Ok so I should ask for more academic challenge..

thisgoesto11 some teachers are better at differentiating work than others.. the one speed fits all approach usually isn't a success..

Yes I know. I'm a teacher!!!

What subject is it?

thisgoesto11 maths

My kids at private prep do monthly exams which cover what they've done over the previous month, does yours do this? Do you have an idea of whether they're learning and retaining what they're being taught? Kids will sometimes not particularly like a teacher's methods and say the lessons are boring compared to another teacher who they feel is more engaging but they may not learn and retain knowledge and better with the engaging teacher.

Do you have stats to back up their complaints rather than just the views of your children and their friends?

sheep73 phew you wouldn't believe the amount of parental complaints that end up with "my child thinks Mrs Smith is boring" or a genuinely reasonable concern is lost under what their children, their children's friends say and what other parents have been gossiping about.

Different children peak in different subjects at different times. At secondary I've seen children go through the school over 5 years and some years they've been ahead, some they've been on a plateau as other students catch up to where they were and then they've had another spurt in a later year. It's not necessarily the case that children keep going on exactly the same trajectory each year, much as some schools leaders would like their spreadsheets to.

Some things you might want to have to support your next steps might be:

Have you got your children's test results/attainment for this year compared to their previous year results?

Are your children getting 95-100% all the time and finishing early? Or are they finishing early and only getting 80%?

Are they dropping marks by not doing what questions ask of them? For example some of my colleagues in maths can have a really hard time getting some students to accept that there are method marks and it doesn't matter if the student doesn't want to show their working, they have to.

What are they doing in maths? Are they finishing early and letting the teacher know they need more work, or are they coasting in the lesson at the same pace as other students and doing less work so the teacher is unlikely to see they need more?

What homework have they been set and are they getting high marks consistently in that?

Find out what opportunities are for mastery in the subject and whether your DC are attempting them. I've known situations where I've taken a complaint from a parent similar to yours and then I've investigated and there's extension materials available most if not all lessons and the student wasn't doing them/ they were doing the minimum in lessons.

I'm not saying your DC are doing any of those things by the way, but it would be worth being clear why you believe as a parent that there's not enough challenge as it will help the discussion with the head.

Madamecastafiore unfortunately we get no attainment information for DS2 :-( so it really is guess work. We just get info on whether they are making an effort but nothing about performance. DS1 does do exams every term and gets well over 75% but you get no information on whether the rest of the class also gets over 75% or whether this is top of the tree so its hard to know where things stand. Apparently performance reporting is being introduced next September..

LolaSmiles thankyou for your suggestions - this really helps.

Have you got your children's test results/attainment for this year compared to their previous year results? Weirdly we get no info on attainment - we don't see marks or get -exceeding / meeting / working towards we just get narrative and whether they are making an effort.. For DS2 we get exam results 2-3 times per year but we don't know the range within the class or how this translates to a SAS/other.

Are your children getting 95-100% all the time and finishing early? Or are they finishing early and only getting 80%? See above, I know with DS2 he actually performs better when things are harder. DS1 is sitting practice exams and getting 75% + so I know where / how he is dropping marks. Sometimes its lack of familiarity with the material / they haven't covered it / silly mistakes

Are they dropping marks by not doing what questions ask of them? For example some of my colleagues in maths can have a really hard time getting some students to accept that there are method marks and it doesn't matter if the student doesn't want to show their working, they have to. DS2 does not always read the question especially if it 'looks' easy. Showing workings is also a constant battle but they are both aware of this and DS1 has improves and DS2 is making progress.

What are they doing in maths? Are they finishing early and letting the teacher know they need more work, or are they coasting in the lesson at the same pace as other students and doing less work so the teacher is unlikely to see they need more? DS2 is a speed machine so will do anything to finish first but is regularly told to slow down and focus on quality. But I suspect he is turned off by the teacher (sorry this is where the boring problem comes in). Both kids also say the teacher is shouty (whilst boring!). Though the shouting in DS2's class has decreased since the start of the year.

What homework have they been set and are they getting high marks consistently in that? Its a private school and the homework is done at school so we don't see this either.. I do ask to see their books twice a term so I can see what they are doing and how they are getting on. Both DS seem to perform well in class and get most questions right. They are doing the work required of them but its a good idea to ask re extension work. I believe they all do the same first sheet and if you finish that you move onto an extension sheet. Usually DS2 has lost interest by the end of the first sheet because its (in his eyes) too easy. The previous teacher had a style they both preferred where there were 3 different groups and each group started with a different level of difficulty. Both kids are quick learners and easy to teach at home.

Find out what opportunities are for mastery in the subject and whether your DC are attempting them. I've known situations where I've taken a complaint from a parent similar to yours and then I've investigated and there's extension materials available most if not all lessons and the student wasn't doing them/ they were doing the minimum in lessons. Thanks I will follow up on this. It all seems very vague and as I am not in the classroom its hard to tell what is happening.

Tbh, they may find the lessons “slow” but if they’re struggling to slow down sufficiently to understand or haven’t taken it in to start with, perhaps it’s more with an approach to learning? Is your concern about passing exams to move on? Can the school give you an indication of where this lies for each to give you an idea?

My two will both complain about lessons - boring - one turns out to be really quite quick and bright, loves learning and has great teachers, and the other pretty good but not as quick at picking up things and not as interested in learning! So the same feedback from two totally different children…..

Swansong124 yes the whole idea of the last couple of years is to prepare for senior school exams. Both are bright, keen and eager to learn and are quick learners and do so in the other subjects. They have said the teacher talks too much (anecdotes, what happened on the weekend) and there is not enough doing maths.. It seems the lower ability students like the teacher as the pace is gentle but its not doing it for my kids..

Hmm is it possible you are paying too much attention to your DCs opinions of this teacher? Show me a child who goes through years of school thinking all their teachers are lovely fun cool exciting etc - hard to find! There are undoubtedly some boring teachers but they may still be doing a good job.
if you are asking your DS about his maths lessons/work, he probably complains about the teacher to deflect your focus away from him. Check out your DS progress, and encourage him as best you can. Maybe there are maths games or simple resources you can use at home to practice.

Why are they doing their home work at school?

marcopront its part of the very long school day

But it is not home work then

The bane of the "entitlement to edutainment"

🤐

It's called prep, which is the same as homework, in that it's work the kids are set to do on their own after the lessons have finished. I assume OP was calling it homework for simplicity's sake.

Your child has openly said they get bored before the end of the first sheet and don't ask for the next one. Is the teacher supposed to know he is ready via telepathy?

Get some more concrete information before you do anything else.

It's not too easy if they are not reading the questions properly or not bothering to show their working. They need to learn that it doesn't matter if you can do it in your head, you have to be able to show how you got the answer, because it's the process that matters.

What may appeal to them could be the logic of doing it purely out of self interest; if they have a sudden glitch and write the wrong answer down, they lose more marks (all of them) than if they trusted the process and got the other 2, 3 or 12 marks.

Is the teacher qualified?

This could be a maths graduate who is very good at maths, but less so at understanding how children learn, process of feedback to move learning on, challenge to deepen learning etc. Actual teaching.

Private schools do not have to employ qualified teachers, so it is a possibility that this is the case.

Nimbostratus100 I think you have misunderstood - when I say bored... the teacher is a nice person, cheery etc. but very chatty in classes telling irrelevant anecdotes and endlessly explaining stuff that the DC feel they already understand (a sort of everyone put your pens down and listen to how to do #2 when they are already on #8 and did #2 without issues). And then they fly off the handle and are very shouty.
The kids just want to get on and do maths without the anecdotes (waste of time) and the hystrionics.

MTIH you have hit the nail on the head here - they are a qualified teacher but their background is not maths / science and hence I think they don't find it that straightforward themselves.

Sarahcoggles correct

@Sarahcoggles

It's called prep, which is the same as homework, in that it's work the kids are set to do on their own after the lessons have finished. I assume OP was calling it homework for simplicity's sake.

When someone has queried it being done at school, still calling it homework is making it more complicated.

However whenever it is done the OP could still look at it.

From your replies OP, I think there's a couple of things that stand out for me as a teacher, and they are things I'd point out to a parent if they ever contacted me concerned about their child's progres.

DS1 is sitting practice exams and getting 75% + so I know where / how he is dropping marks. Sometimes its lack of familiarity with the material / they haven't covered it / silly mistakes
75% isn't a child who is excelling at maths. Lack of familiarity would come with engaging with the content in class and prep so it is secure. Silly mistakes

If they've not covered the content, is that due to absence/cover lessons, it was available as extension materials but your DC hasn't completed it, was it deliberately unseen to push able mathematicians in the class to apply their mathematical thinking in a new way, or topics that your DC weren't expecting?

DS2 is a speed machine so will do anything to finish first but is regularly told to slow down and focus on quality. But I suspect he is turned off by the teacher (sorry this is where the boring problem comes in).Both kids also say the teacher is shouty (whilst boring!). Though the shouting in DS2's class has decreased since the start of the year.
You're putting too much on this when the real issue is the first part:
DS2 likely has quite a fixed mindset and views finishing first as a sign of intelligence. This is surprisingly common in students who have been used to performing well in younger years. They place value on the act of appearing first to finish, regardless of the quality of the work. It also means he is likely embedding misconceptions and silly mistakes because he isn't taking the time to understand and master the material.

Usually DS2 has lost interest by the end of the first sheet because its (in his eyes) too easy.
Again this is about self perception on their part and what they think looks smart. They've decided that because they think it's too easy, they don't need to bother with the more challenging work. A student who is making silly mistakes throughout their work isn't showing they've mastered the content. A student who doesn't do the more challenging work because they claim they're bored on the first part is shooting themselves in the foot.

The previous teacher had a style they both preferred where there were 3 different groups and each group started with a different level of difficulty
From what you've said I'm not surprised by this. One or both seem to make silly mistakes on work, rush through, want to finish first, don't do the challenging prep because they've decided the start is boring, so it's not a surprise that they'd find value in something that outwardly labels them as brighter.

There's an awful lot of focus from your DC on the teacher being boring, the homework being boring, but not very much from them on owning their own learning and their own attitude to their studies.

My advice as a parent/teacher to another parent would be to start with your children and say that you're happy to discuss their progress with the teacher, but only once their scores are consistently high, their prep is done to a high standard and they stop making excuses. I think they're trying to play you off against the teacher to be honest.

You've got first hand experience of all this have you OP?
Honestly, you seem a bit obsessed about this. Maybe your DS's are not as bright as you think they are?

OP said her kids have an aptitude for maths not that they are geniuses/ excelling.
OP is paying for education, there is no formal feedback on attainment, teacher is not a maths specialist, is shouty and admits the class is on a go slow but the Mumsnet jury says that is ok as the kids are not getting more than 75 per cent? I'm lost..
Surely the point of education is to inspire / encourage kids to learn.. not to turn them off / squeeze the joy out of them?