Can you help me? How important is the 13+ interview Vs other factors?

[parent1709]

Hello

Would any parents that have actually gone through the 13+ admissions process (particularly at Eton) please help me with the following questions.

In the interest of being open with fellow parents I can share that 10 year old DS struggles with the basic elements e.g. selling himself at interview, struggles to explain why he likes something and sadly struggles with eye contact. Some of this is related to his SEN condition (ADHD and Sensory Processing Disorder) and this is documented in an Educational Psychologist's report shared with all the senior schools. He is totally fine with his peers, has loads of friends and loves school.

Westminster (without me even asking) helpfully arranged his assessment interview with a member of the SEN team and the feedback from DS was that the interview went "very well" . This is because Westminster (helpfully for DS) ask specific academic curricula questions which he has no issues with, rather than a general chat about his interests (which he struggles with).

Eton format is (I understand) more of a general chat and feedback from DS was that it went "ok". He has not talked about the interview much and we are not probing.

DS has no issues on the academic side (Eton said "extremely well" ISEB result in their email but maybe they say that to everyone who goes to Stage 2, he found Eton List Test "difficult" which is actually a great sign lol!, he has an excellent reference from his headmaster at a school which is a top and regular feeder, which I hope would have mentioned his extensive extracurricular activities).

His prep school has made modest attempts to improve matters (one or two mock interviews which have only confirmed his weakness on the general chat front), but have indicated this might be age/development related.

Can anyone help me with the following:

• In recent years, how much weight do Eton put on the 15 minute interview Vs other elements (ISEB, List Test, Reference)?
• We have shared the Educational Psychologist/SEN report with the school (which mentioned the eye contact issue for example), but do Eton have the time to take this level of detail into consideration?
• Should I call Eton prior to the rejection, results to explain the above or will this make matters worse for the child's chances?

In short is the Eton interview just to confirm/validate the rest of the application, or is the interview given a significant/deciding weight?

Am I overthinking this?

Sorry, but you actually want your child to go to Eton?!?!

The interview gives significant weight. Eton is a highly selective and academic school but the interview is not just confirmatory, it has weight in its own right. If the interview is a disaster, when coupled with a stellar set of results and reference from prep school they could B list to have another look again in time to see if maturity and growth will help. But the interviewers are all current or ex housemasters, good at drawing our boys and getting them chatting and so exactly the people to judge if the boy would be able to take advantage of what Eton has to offer.

I do think you're overthinking it a bit - they know what they're looking for and will take all factors into account (including SEN reports) and decide whether they think he will cope in a big, fast paced environment where it can be very sink or swim and boys are expected to be independent self-starters and advocate for their own learning.

If he doesn't get offered a place it's no reflection on him (or you!) - it just means they don't think he would be a good fit. It's certainly not right for everyone. He will find his place

Assuming you are looking at a day place at Westminster, yes, they would focus on academics.

Eton is a full boarding school and they are not only looking for intelligence but “suitability for boarding”. This would include ability to get on with others, feel comfortable in their own skin, will take full advantage of school life and also actually WANT to board (as opposed to having it thrust upon them by their parents.)

The structure offered by a boarding school actually really suits some SEN children extremely well and they thrive. For others, being away from home and their normal coping strategies can be a step too far. As a result boarding schools take the interview very seriously. If he doesn’t get in then it’s just not the right place for him.

Seriously, what’s the point of commenting on something you clearly know nothing about? 🤔

As I recall, they do consider the interview relatively important. Most candidates will be academically able, probably with decent reports from their schools - so the interview is one way to distinguish one from another. Obviously not just for academic purposes but to ascertain whether or not they might thrive in that particular boarding environment.

They always seemed quite open to discussing things with prospective parents - don’t know if that’s changed more recently.

Thank you all for your replies I appreciate you reading the long OP as well. May I comment on three points"

"The structure offered by a boarding school actually really suits some SEN children extremely well and they thrive."

DS is currently in a boarding prep and my numerous accounts falls into the above category.

"The interview gives significant weight."

That's what I feared thought as well. I was only wishfully hoping that because it was only 15 minutes compared with much longer sessions at all other schools it carried proportionately less weight. Also I was clinging onto one datapoint from a successful parent of a senior boy at his current school who said that for Eton in particular the interview "does not matter"

"they could B list to have another look again in time to see if maturity and growth will help"

We are in the Early Assessment stream (applying for significant financial aid) and therefore I am not sure there will be a B list? If there was a B list I would be a lot less concerned as (a) he could mature and (b) his headmaster who is well known to the admission team could and would fight for DS on the phone.

"big, fast paced environment where it can be very sink or swim and boys are expected to be independent self-starters and advocate for their own learning."

Actually my gut feeling (based on zero personal experience or feedback) is that this would be more of an issue (for our child) in an uber-academic day school like Westminster, rather than a relatively balanced boarding school (even a Eton the largest of them all is split into small and likely nurturing houses). I am conscious that the days of him being in cotton wool protected will soon be over and any senior school (state or private) will need self-starting.

"But the interviewers are all current or ex housemasters, good at drawing our boys and getting them chatting and so exactly the people to judge if the boy would be able to take advantage of what Eton has to offer."

I am almost certain once they got to know him (over a few days) this would be the case, but more difficult for a SEN boy to do this in 15 minutes. Frustratingly his monosyllable responses with adults does not reflect his social skills with other boys, or his hunger to protect the goal in football or his hyper focus when building a wooden structure of his own design. He just does not present himself well in 15 minutes sadly.

"If he doesn’t get in then it’s just not the right place for him."

I agree. Although in defence of other candidates there were a number of bright boys who did not make it past Stage 1 this year who are more than capable of thriving at Eton academically AND would have been a perfect fit out of class., They would have aced the 15 minute interview but sadly they never got a chance. It's been a funny year.

there were a number of bright boys who did not make it past Stage 1 this year who are more than capable of thriving at Eton

This is the same every year. They go to Winchester (or somewhere else) instead. And vice versa. If you’re at a boarding prep you’ll know the boys themselves have their own views on who should fit where - doesn’t stop them being highly surprised, every so often.

(You’ll have to forgive me for a wry smile at your level of intense, focussed detail, OP. I completely empathise. In our case there was only the pre-test and then CE or KS - I gather it’s even more protracted now - but I remember the sleepless nights weighing up the odds.)

I’m afraid you may want to reassess small and likely nurturing houses, though. Some HMs might be more ‘nurturing’ than others, but boarding house life is busy and robust - and for a 13 year old, unlike prep school, four fifths of your housemates are older than you are. And your own year is full of boys who, like you, have beaten the competition to get there. They have a lot of fun, but it’s not noticeably gentle.

(For the right boys it can seem wonderfully freeing after a prep, or full of new horizons after a state school. Every year a handful discover that it’s just not for them, which is perfectly understandable.)

Dear RandomersAssociation and others I agree I am guilty of over analysis.

For what it's worth even Westminster which on paper said their interview was 50 minutes turned out (based on feedback from a parent) to be actually shorter, 25 minutes. Also no academic topics covered at Westminster, also just a general chat.

So two highly competitive schools have interviews of 15 minutes (Eton) and 25 min (Westminster) focused on general chatting...he says cynically

In the case of Eton given that those who performed well enough on the ISEB Pretest are (all things being equal) likely to also do well on the Pre Test which feedback from DS indicates was "VR and NVR" so not a million miles from other tests, although it has this mystique and mythology of being this unique IQ test which magically measures innate ability (sorry for the sarcasm, i have had a long day)....but is essentially another exam to reconfirm what one part of the ISEB already says.

It is fair to assume that all boys in Stage 2 have good references, good ISEBs which are then correlated with good IQ/aka Eton List test scores. So the key difference comes down to a 15 minute interview, which I would say comes down to literally first impressions (like with adults) and do I "like" this kid?, does he have than authenticity about him? does he seem to want it more than others? - if in the 15 min your kid is able to engage you are in, if he is challenged/slower in terms of communications and can't make a connection in 15 min, then...

...which begs the question why is the Eton interview only 15 min? Your boy is there for three hours so there is loads of time. Why don't they have a longer session like Winchester?

Thoughts from anyone who sat these tests recently?

Oops I meant "those who performed well enough on the ISEB Pretest are (all things being equal) likely to also do well on the Eton List Test Pre Test"

None of us ‘sat’ the exams recently as we’re presumably all adults here.

I can see what you’re doing … You can’t actually control the process so you’re obsessing over this one thing - the length of the interview and the rationale behind it. Trust me, in years to come you’ll cringe over this. Because even if your thread runs to 1000 posts six times over - it won’t make a blind bit of difference. In the end, a boy either gets in, or he doesn’t - and goes somewhere else, and probably thrives.

As kindly as possible - chill.

I love an Eton thread 😉

A snippet of more feedback - DS10 "did not like Eton at all"....because "there were all old buildings" 😬

Not sure what he was expecting from a 583 year old school

I have recent experience of a closeish family member who was offered a place on the A list (not coming from a feeder prep). The feedback was very positive on the interview, ISEB was good enough to get through Winchester and Westminster, Eton feed back was that he was in the top 20 per cent on the List Test. But specific comments were made about shining at interview (and the kid has a significant extra curricular talent too). This leads me to conclude that for Eton interview is more important than most other things because we know boys who were top 5-10 per cent on list test and did not get in on A list. However, they did not have acknowledged SEN so potentially your DS would be treated differently due to that and it would be taken into account. I would be tempted to trust the schools and go with e.g Westminster if he is offered that instead. The kid in my family did not like Westminster but loved Eton - is highly naturally able (not someone who studies for hours on end) but a complete all rounder and also very resilient/robust/sociable and never gives up on anything.

Thanks both.

DS liked Westminster "a lot" ... I guess the buildings being 120 years newer must have clinched it for him 😉... just goes to show how random subjective kids can be at this age. His headmaster remarked how a boy he knew told his parents he preferred a particular school because it had a McDonald's close by...and that in his view at this age, parents really need to take charge of major school decisions and not leave it to the child.

DS like all applicants has a laundry list of extracurricular stuff but is passionate about DT / carpentry (he loves this and has flashes of creativity since he was a toddler), football (C team) and cricket (B team) and enjoys the drums and to a lesser extent piano (Grade 1). He enjoys these passionately and is hungry on the field. At the end of every match I see him walking away with another boy's arm around him, both chatting about things that boys chat about.

Despite the above his headmaster has noted that even after a few mocks he interviews pretty poorly (this headmaster does not mince words) and I am not convinced they have provided the child with feedback, the tools to improve or if if he has the maturity to take it in. I had to force myself to remain calm when the headmaster suggested we apply in Y7 😕"an extra year might do him good"... (never mind that half the schools close their processes in Y6)

@parent1709 - I let all my DCs choose their secondary schools and it has worked out really well. They all knew what suited them at that age. They are strong minded, driven etc. and the feel of a place was important to them as well as the other types of children who go there. Most selective places have a feel.

Of course the headmaster of a prep knows best…. They need to justify their own value.

A child with a unique interest like carpentry should be able to talk in a charming and detailed way about it and even bring something to an interview to illustrate. That is what I would have encouraged if it were my child with SEN.

However, I would also say to you that Eton and Westminster tend to be for the boys who really shine at primary - the types who are streets ahead academically in eg maths and read adult books/history books for fun, or play Grade 7 French horn or county hockey/tennis/swimming etc. Those are the boys that get in easily.

If your DC is ultra bright and does not make it this time there is still the academic scholarship route?

Thanks Aleaiactaest

DC is bright but not scholarship material (well not yet anyway). He is in the middle of the top set in a pretty able intake in his year at the school. Recently he has been moving upwards academically. Socially he has been consistently happy at school.

He has never read adult books for fun and does not show any particular talent in music or sport (talent can be seen at an early age). I am kicking myself sadly missed the opportunity to ask him to bring a sample of his carpentry work. We are talking about a child who would not give up building a wooden swimming pool and dragged me to Homebase to pick up supplies. A couple of years back while building a cardboard secret den, he would not accept his engineer dad telling him that his structure was too tall and would collapse. Left to his own devices, he discovered the principal of suspension rope to support tall structures. As a toddler (4 years old or so) he sent in an entry for a design competition involving a hammer that did not make noise (the design was converted into an actual working piece by the organisors)...he was too young to remember that now. English, Maths, VR, NVR very good but not off the charts...however Education Psychologist said his spatial reasoning was off the charts.

He is not talented as such - just observably bright, often driven and frequently creative...periods of hyper focus next to periods of total attention lapse. Zero bullying at his primary/prep, but not a place for shrinking violets and he is happy to give as much as he takes (classmate called him a pretty offensive name, he simply called him a name back and they were mates again)... in Y4 used to cry after losing a football match, now in Y6 a bit more resilient.

We applied to Westminster and St Pauls 13+ as wild card / long shots. He did not get in at the 7+ and remained waitlisted at 8+ at an academic day feeder (the only school we applied for), although this was due to us not realizing he had ADHD at the time. He got into a middling West London 11+ grammar school, but not the highly competitive ones.

I would be looking for a school that supports his actual talents OP - so a focus on engineering, architecture and DT and woodwork.

Do the competitive boys schools you have applied for actually do this specifically?

Places like Eton do not necessarily ask the question what can we do for this candidate. They ask what will this candidate contribute to our school. So if he can or has shown that he would go there and inspire others to build, create, show his passion and engage his peers, he might get in. If he hasn’t shown that, others probably have. There are a ton of state school kids up and down the country brimming with energy and talents etc and Eton can take their pick for financial aid candidates and increasingly for full fee paying kids too.

My kids do the NYO. They are reasonably talented but not exceptional. To be frank I encouraged them to do music to mix with kids who work hard and stay focussed during teenage years. It has worked.
Every time there are tons of exceptional kids at the NYO and other orchestras who would have qualified for full financial aid at top schools but choose not to because they have great opportunities in London for their talents, for example, the specific music schools/professional musician teachers that already work well for them, parents who are musicians etc. The same applies to a sport one of my DC does. Tons of these kids go to state grammars and comps. It is fine if the kid is innately driven anyway. Sometimes you get a poor teacher one year and you just help at home or tutor. However, the same can happen in expensive private schools.

As your DS has a father who is an engineer I really would not worry… rather than focussing on school entry (if it does not work out) reapply your focus on his talents. It is not necessarily a bad thing to have a child that matures slightly later anyway. Many early risers burn out. I would not be discouraged by that at all. He sounds like a lovely boy. Good luck

Full disclosure: I am a current Eton parent. I think the interview carries a lot of weight. Yes, it’s just a chat, but I know several of DS’s friends from prep who didn’t get in, or were put on the wait list, and I was amazed.
These were super bright boys who would have thrived there imho.
One of them said he got into a difficult conversation about religion and panicked and painted himself into a corner.
DS said it was a casual chat about where he lives and what he likes to do in his free time. He is fairly academic and got a place, but not as academic as some of the ones who didn’t get places- go figure.
Although Eton has a SEN department etc, you may want to consider if it is the best environment for your son’s specific needs.
as others say, it is a great environment for bright, self motivated, hard working boys. DS is a laidback chap but has always been highly focussed on his work and his sport. He is very disciplined. They work them really hard- he has a lot of EW (homework) and has to work hard to fit it all in. They are also expected to do a lot of extra curricular and sports and to take advantage of all the opportunities that Eton presents them with. Hope this helps.

Aleaiactaest
All the competitive boys schools we have applied to have brilliant provision of those pursuits (DT, engineering, carpentry, architecture). Just from very brief school visits perhaps one or two present this a bit more (e.g. some vehicle built by kids displayed) but he would be adequately supported in DT at all privates. I am also mindful that his passions somewhat change, sometimes a new one emerging literally in a month (e.g. recently art).

I am still under the naive assumption that the assessment process for means tested bursary candidates is the same as non-bursary candidates (at least that's what the Admission staff told me). It's just earlier to allow forward planning.

Tallyhodavey

Great to hear from a parent and thanks for your balanced feedback. DS SEN needs were well supported at both state primary (where his ADHD was actually spotted) and prep. All the schools we have applied to have good SEN, one or two better than others but again that's just an outside view based on zero data.

Your DS sounds like a lovely young gentleman (I mean that as a complement!)
I noted some interesting points you made and compared this to my DS because I love personality analysis, have nothing better to do with my time

Bright (yes for DS, multiple metrics, observable, no genius just pretty bright)
Self motivated (yes for DS but only for things which he likes)

Hard working (kind of, his prep has a culture of hard work)... I have repeated to him since he was a child that mama and papa love him irrespective of whether he is top or bottom, A or F, and all that matters is that he does his absolute best. His school also promotes this DNA in studies and sport.

Highly focused on work (variable from term to term and subject to subject, his monthly school reports are mixed and I mean that in the true sense - 55 in maths in one month, then 87 in the next month with great focus in class, aces the ISEB, then back to 55 with low participation in class...reasonably consistently good in english and consistently average in all other subjects...although this is in a high performing top set)

Disciplined (No for DS, not really, obviously follows school rules really well and actually thrives with rules and routine, but not disciplined in the sense of being able to be easily tutored for a test and/or disciplined enough to give 100% on even subjects he does not enjoy - unlike my brothers daughter lol)

Lots of extracurricular (yes for DS, even by prep school standards)

Sport (yes for DS, I finally realize and now appreciate the direct cause-effect link between sport and academic performance, he is a natural team player on the field and gives it his all)

Dear @parent1709 this was a really useful thread. I’ve enjoyed your analysis of the various entrance procedures. Im desperate to know what happened in the end. Have you made up your mind? I hope you got somewhere that you liked.

Our boy was rejected (with no waiting list) in the 2nd round at Westminster, St Pauls, Eton and all the day and grammar school we applied to.

Thankfully the 60 minute interview at Winchester must have suited him because he was placed on the Reserve List for which we are thankful and hopeful.

Any tips from WinColl parents for those on the waiting list would be appreciated.

@parent1709 Well done re: WinColl! Fingers crossed for the final hurdle

Thank you @Jelly1978

I think you have to trust that the school will be able to work out fairly quickly if your DS is suitable for their school or not. The process boys have to go through to gain a place is not inconsiderable, and as a previous MNer said, the teachers that do the interviews and assessment days are very very used to talking to 10 year old boys and getting the most out of them. If your son doesn’t get in, have faith that it was not the right school for him and that he will be better off somewhere else. This is the outlook I am taking with my DS’s applications. If he doesn’t get into a highly selective school, for example (ie top 10), then perhaps it’s for the best. Some boys thrive wonderfully in that kind of environment, others really don’t. I feel like it’s too early to tell if my son is that kind of child, and the teachers at the schools are probably better placed to judge than me!
my impression is that the schools are now pretty knowledgeable about SEN issues, to varying degrees. They also recognise that some very bright people out there have ADHD or autism, and that children on the autism spectrum could be a valuable addition to any school.

Ah! Sorry, just saw this was a fairly old thread and I didn’t read to the end!