RSE lessons in your child’s school - whether primary or secondary

[ScrollingLeaves]

I was wondering if any parents here had views to share about their experience of how this is being taught at your child’s school?

Alternatively, you may be a teacher who has thoughts to share.

For example, is RSE at your school outsourced to a specialist provider? If so, have you been allowed to scrutinise the content?

Are you happy with everything being taught, or do you feel some aspects are related to adult political ideology and not appropriate for their age?

Have you had any sense that your child has been taught that everyone has a ‘gender identity’ which may be different to their sex “assigned at birth” stated an accepted fact?

Bump

Do you work for The Daily Mail?

What's RSE?

DilettanteMum · Today 22:33
Do you work for The Daily Mail?
No, I don’t.

RampantIvy · Today 22:37
What's RSE?
RSE stands for
Relationships and Sex Education.

Primary. Yes we got information about it in advance (I thought everyone had to 'consult' now?) Not outsourced exactly but they bought a scheme of work from some organisation, sorry can't remember name. No - was quite straightforward, talked about sex not gender as far as I remember.

I know what you are getting at, but I would suggest there is very little in this world that is not biased in some way or other.

ThreeFeetTall · Today 23:24
Primary. Yes we got information about it in advance (I thought everyone had to 'consult' now?) Not outsourced exactly but they bought a scheme of work from some organisation, sorry can't remember name. No - was quite straightforward, talked about sex not gender as far as I remember.

I know what you are getting at, but I would suggest there is very little in this world that is not biased in some way or other

Thank you for answering, and it is good your experience was positive. Although parents are supposed to be able to see the teaching materials, you hear of some providers refuse no to on grounds of their commercial interests.

It is reassuring to hear that at your primary school they spoke of sex not gender.

When DD had the sex ed talk at school all the parents were invited to a parents' evening where they showed the film they were going to show the children and told what the contents of the lesson was going to be.

This was 12 years ago now, and life was a little less complicated.

RampantIvy · Today 08:05
When DD had the sex ed talk at school all the parents were invited to a parents' evening where they showed the film they were going to show the children and told what the contents of the lesson was going to be.

This was 12 years ago now, and life was a little less complicated.

Thank sounds exactly what any parent would hope for. What a thoughtful attitude on the part of the school. It would be very good if all schools did this. Unfortunately, since then, as you say, life is more complicated.

Our school uses the Jigsaw PHSE curriculum - this include health, relationships and emotional development, not just sex Ed. We have access to it and parents are invited in before any stage which addresses sex

This shows how 'gender identity' is addressed (not our schools resource) drapers-infants.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/document/How-does-Jigsaw-approach-gender-identity-Copy-1.pdf?t=1623328855?ts=1624699884

I'm GC and very happy with this approach at primary

HeyMicky · Today 09:26
Our school uses the Jigsaw PHSE curriculum - this include health, relationships and emotional development, not just sex Ed. We have access to it and parents are invited in before any stage which addresses sex

This shows how 'gender identity' is addressed (not our schools resource) drapers-infants.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/document/How-does-Jigsaw-approach-gender-identity-Copy-1.pdf?t=1623328855?ts=1624699884

I'm GC and very happy with this approach at primary

Thank you very much for your reply, and link, HeyMickey.

Looking through it briefly I would have a few problems with it as even though it is measured and child sensitive overall, I do personally think the concepts of ‘gender identity’, ‘trans’ ‘non binary’ and ‘cis’, based on whether or not a child has stereotypical presentation of male or female, is being suggested - all be it not in those words.

The main thing though is that you say parents can see the material, as this means it can be discussed at home or with school. Thanks again.

HeyMicky · Today 09:26
Obviously it isn’t for me to tell you how to think about this PSHE provision, but there are some interesting threads on Mumsnet which correspond with my initial response. I do personally believe it has serious problems regarding the ‘gender identity’ messages. It really is not innocuous. It is concerning to me to think this is compulsory.

Thank you again for the link.

The slide show for the younger children seems troubling to me. There's a girl called Bella, a boy called Billy, and a third child called B. Bella plays with girls' toys, Billy plays with boys' toys and B plays with both. B gets picked on by both the other children for their choice of toys.

Surely this is reinforcing gender stereotypes and planting the idea that those who play with the wrong gender toys are different/odd/going to be picked on/non binary etc. Which is exactly what we want to avoid at this young age. Why don't they just show a variety of children playing with a variety of toys and show the children some advantages of this approach?

This to me is more troubling than telling the Y6 children that some men live as women or vice versa.

Exactly,
SnackSizeRaisin · Today 11:30

And look at the graphics - looking as though aimed at primary school.
Short haired boy. Ponytail with side parting and Tendrilled girl, then the non-binary/trans/ nameless one with the lopsided long fringe on one side, short cut on the other.

The Robert Cowell story….

The description for teaching about transgender in the parent’s leaflet says says:
“A transgender person feels their body does not match with their gender.” Feeds the idea of being in the wrong body which is definely against DofE guidelines

“A person who was born with a male body may feel they are female” …. but of course they cannot actually know what a female feels like it can only be an idea of a stereotype.

They say this is for 10-11 year olds but can be used for younger children if they have a transgender person in their class.

Parents should not be transitioning young children n the first place imo. It is not neutral as the Cass report pointed out.

This letter shows an example of the effect of Jigsaw on a six year old:
familyeducationtrust.org.uk/letter-to-primary-school-about-jigsaw-phse-materials/

^The issue of gender identity is rarely treated as an explicit focus in Jigsaw 3-11 as the programme does its best to create an inclusive ethos as described above. There are opportunities for transgender to be included in classroom discussions at the teacher’s discretion, but there is only one lesson (for children aged 10-11 years) where this term is used explicitly.
At no point does Jigsaw say there are only two genders but equally it doesn’t suggest there are more; neither, in the primary programme does it refer to gender fluidity.^

Those graphics are definitely aimed at reception up and are directly related to illustrating gender identity.

They separate two stereotypical children instead of showing all sorts of boys and girls playing with all sorts of toys all together on the same poster.

The rainbow flag too works as indoctrination and lodge in the small children's minds and give them a reference for familiarity where ever they see Pride events. It is aligning not ‘Billy’, ’Bella’ but ‘B’ with ‘pride’ in this case, the TQ part of LGBTQ by suggesting any child who is a bit different might be TQ.

They use the wrong terminology saying ‘only two genders’ and priding themselves on saying they never say there are only two. There are only two sexes though.

They themselves add confusion with their 3rd element ‘B’.

I think a lot of what you've said above is wrong. And a lot of what was on your link was wrong. The handwringing about teaching that there are gay relationships before teaching about the physical act of sex was particularly bizarre.

However, I do agree with you on the idea of B, Bella and the Ben or whoever it was. A better approach would have been to have lots of children - boys playing with trains, girls playing with trains, boys playing with dolls, girls playing with dolls, children whose sex isn't possible to tell from name or presentation playing with dolls. Because it's important that children know that wanting long hair doesn't make you a girl, and neither does liking dolls or the colour pink - this allows children to feel free to express themselves any way they like without feeling like they're in the wrong body.

Some people are trans and have dysphoria. But some people, especially children, just don't present in a way that others feel matches their biological sex. They also need to feel accepted and included.

Anothernameanother · Today 10:36
I think a lot of what you've said above is wrong. And a lot of what was on your link was wrong. The handwringing about teaching that there are gay relationships before teaching about the physical act of sex was particularly bizarre

Please will you quote which part you think is wrong, as I am not sure which part of what I said you mean? Then please would you say why it is wrong?
The first part was from Jigsaw itself.

If anyone would like to sign this petition it is against teaching ‘gender identity’ ideology to children in RSE lessons in school.
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618970

As an example:

"They say this is for 10-11 year olds but can be used for younger children if they have a transgender person in their class.

Parents should not be transitioning young children n the first place imo. It is not neutral as the Cass report pointed out."

Why do you say parents? You know that some transgender children are born to unaccepting parents, right? If you've ever met a young child who is certain that they are a gender that doesn't match their biological sex, despite their parents bring against, you'd understand this. What do you propose people do when a child themselves is adamant everyone calls them a boy/girl? Because I think we should follow the child's lead. Including if they change their mind later on.

Thank you for explaining Anothernameanither

The Cass report explains how to affirm children is not a neutral act.

A small child does not know what sex is outside social stereotypes. There are actually experiments to show how little children think a doll has changed sex just by changing its clothes and accessories.

It’s takes time for children to understand they have a sex.

A boy child may present as more feminine than socially expected, or a girl child may seem more masculine in their interests but that is as far as it goes. Most will grow up perfectly normally. A few who are non-conforming may grow up to be homosexual.

Some parents are horrified by a feminine seeming boy or masculine seeming girl and the thought they might be gay. For them it be preferable to think their child is trans.

Some parents may have wanted a child of another sex.

Some parents may be caught up with fashionable gender and queer theories about artificial boundaries

Some ( looking at the USA) get to feel special through having a trans child.

There may be all sorts of reasons a small child says they are not the sex they are.
They may sense a parent prefers another sex. They might want to be like a sibling. They may be autistic and have been over literal in their interpretation of a stereotype they see around them.

Small children often pretend to be something they are not.

To say they are trans is most likely nudging coming from the parents for whatever reason.

Older children have all sorts of reasons for saying they are trans. Autism and needing to fit in coupled with black and white thinking, being in care, having been sexually abused, homophobia in their family, peer pressure to be part of a fashionable cult movement rather than an outcast.

Basically being a bit different from other boys and girls does not mean a child has a different gender identity hidden inside them, and if they think it does that idea has come from some sort of influence - dangerous one that can lead a child along an unfortunate pathway without necessarily curing what ever unease or incongruence they felt.

This clip shows one gender clinic doctor’s experience of a type of parent he often came across.

Not all parents would be like this, but he says this on the basis of many years of experience.

I meant not all parents who say their child is trans.

This video
is about a child born a boy in Texas, now a trans girl.

As a very young child under 3 he was unlike his older macho brothers. He found more feminine clothes to put on, and did not want to play with designated ‘boy’.

Still at this very young age, 3, she said d oh my God is he going to be gay? She actually says she beat him ( 3 years old) for doing and saying feminine things.

Surprise surprise, this poor child began to talk about wanting to die, “ Going to be with Jesus”.

So the mother decided God had given her a girl and transed him.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIkLNsRtas

To say they are trans is most likely nudging coming from the parents for whatever reason.

Evidence or baseless assertion? I can definitely say I have met several children under 10 who disliked when people used the pronouns normally assigned to their sex. Some did not have accepting parents.

Also "transed them" - what do you think that means?

You need to be less black and white about this. Following a child's lead and using pronouns that do not relate to their biological sex is not the end of the world. In the same way that you understand that we should be less binary about stereotypes, we need to be less binary when saying "this person is trans/not trans." No. This child is an 8 year old child. They want to wear their hair long. They want to be called she/her. They love football, dancing and makeup. They use the boys toilets if there are no neutral ones available, because that matches their biological sex.

No. Sex is binary. It is a basic principle of human life. I am not going to use the pronoun/she her to a little boy with long hair. Pronouns relate to sex.

I also would not be telling an anorexic child they are as fat as they say they are.

I would call them whatever they said their name is.

You can read the Cass Report to see what she said about the dangers of affirmation. You can listen to the podcast about the Tavistock in one of the podcasts Nolan Investigates. Both speak of the various factors affecting children’s feelings when they say their body is wrong.

I posted a newspaper clip related to the views from a gender doctor who spoke about ‘transhausen’ by proxy.

I showed an example of a homophobic and physically and mentally abusive parent wanting their child to be trans rather than gay.

We have seen on here a Jigsaw slideshow which would influence a young child to think they are the odd one out if not ‘pink’ or ‘blue’.

Perhaps you would like to provide proof that young children who have an inner gender identity at odds with their body, were not influenced by a factor outside their own mind? But that would be a tall order.

This thread was about what part, if any, schools are playing in creating confusion around gender through what they teach in RSE/PSHE lessons to children, some of which may come from
outside teaching resources. This conversation arose after discussing one famous provider, Jigsaw.

Now it turns out even The Tate has produced some teaching resources intended for schools aimed at indoctrinating children into gender ideology. This is alongside their introducing Drag Queen Story Hour to school children where a drag Queen will read gender identity stories to young children.

correction: DQSH at the Tate would not just be for school children. Younger children could be there too.