Musical child- how unusual is this?

[LondonGirl83]

Sorry for the long post!

My Dd is 5 and plays the piano fairly well- she plays grade 1 pieces and her teacher is planning to start her on grade 2 pieces in the new year.

However, she can play pretty much any melody she’s heard by ear with almost no effort and is starting to try to figure out the accompanying chords now (she just does this for fun). She also has very good relative pitch- so if you play any note and name it, she can easily name any note you play after that in any order and often times can guess the first note too. She likes to transpose the songs she’s learning into different keys and octaves for fun as well.

Her music teacher at school and tap teacher have both mentioned she is really strong at pulse and rhythm and her private piano teacher improvises with her and gets her to make up songs and also thinks she’s very musical. She also sings pretty well for her age.

I know she is above average musically but how unusual is this?

I’m asking as she’s interested in lots of things - does dance, swimming and clubs at school. She’s asked to start a second instrument but also wants to do gymnastics, tennis and coding!
That would be far too much so I’m trying to decide which one additional activity to potentially do based on where she might really benefit from it.

She is quite sporty as well but I think her musical talent is more unusual though it’s hard to benchmark.

TIA

She sounds like she has talent and natural ability that stands out. If she wants to play a second instrument, I don't see why not. But if she has that much ability, waiting a few years won't hurt either. I'd encourage the ability but make sure to keep nurturing all the other areas of her life for balance, especially any areas that might need more support.

If she is at private school, then all of her music should happen at school anyway, I don't understand your dilemma, the school can fit it in easily as 2 instruments are pretty standard for musical kids at private school. Just let her do the cello if she wants, the cello comes in different sizes, so even 4 year olds can play an 1/8 th size. Schools usually rotate the music lessons so that pupils don't always miss the same lessons, so it won't affect anything else she does at school. If you have any time left after school to do something else with her on top depends on your schedule, but the school should be able to let her do 2 instruments, singing and other clubs and sports on top.

She doesn’t do instrumental lessons at her private school yet as that starts when she’s older. The music lessons at school are based on Kodaly currently.

My ‘dilemma’ @NellyBarney as I’ve already explained is she’s asking to do multiple different things in addition to what she already does in and out of school. I’m trying to decide what would be most worthwhile to pick at this stage- an extra sport or an instrument as I don’t think more than one extra thing is appropriate.

Based on everyone’s helpful feedback I think it’s music and we’ll trial the cello and violin and let her pick which she prefers. I’d not thought of Suzuki so I really appreciate the suggestion from a few of you so I’ll look into it.

Agree that she sounds closer to top 1% than 10%, so I think pursuing more music is a great idea. Given how gifted she is, I'd also be tempted to skip some grades - there's nothing that says you have to do grade 1, then 2, then 3 etc, and it could actually slow her down. I wasn't anything like as talented as she sounds, and I only did grades 5, 7 and 8 and definitely progressed faster than if I'd tried to do all the ones in between.

I was similar - my party trick at a similar age was to name any note played on the piano. I didn't actually start lessons until I was 7 though.

I found really good relative pitch to be an advantage as I progressed in music - I could play any familiar tunes in any key, always found aural tests very easy, and when it came to A-level music and dictating a non-diatonic melody, it was a walk in the park.

I went on to do music at university, and loved it all the way through. I don't do much these days, but music was a passion for me in my teens and my natural talent gave me great confidence.

I hope your daughter continues to enjoy music - how well she does will depend as much on her application as her talent, but she certainly has a massive head start!

@Xaviera yes you are right - she is at a highly selective school and is generally very able academically across the board.

Do you find that bright DC are more musical and sportier than average as well at this age? Her school is very selective and even at their young age there are kids playing sport at a high level.

@MarisPiper92 thats interesting that you think it might slow her progress down. Did you still play a wide repertoire?

@LetItGoToRuin that’s interesting you were so similar. Somehow, I feel like if she does more with it, it will be on the composition side. It feels like that’s where her passion is.

She sounds very talented to me. But does she need to do another instrument now? Does she need to do anything else at all as an organised activity?

If she's very bright generally and you have (I think you're correct here!) no aims for her to become a professional musician, then I'd be wondering more about developing some of her others talents. How much does she read? Does she do puzzles, sudoku, chess, coding etc? I only have boys and they are both musical, though not at your daughter's level. But it strikes me (having gone to a very selective London private school myself, a long time ago) that this focus on multiple instruments is a pretty gendered thing.

There were lots of girls at my school who, like me, did grade 5 on two instruments before the end of primary school. They were good at music, but not musically gifted. It took up a lot of time that could have been spent on other things. I recently started playing chess as an adult and absolutely love it, though of course am not especially good. I wish I had done things like this as a child, rather than the piano, the cello, ballet, and a brief bit of tap.

@hopsalong She doesn’t need to do anything but she is begging me to! She is ASKING to do several more organised activities and we will only allow her to do one more as we don’t think anything more than that is appropriate despite how keen she is given her age. She’s a bit older so we are letting her add one.

I was using this thread to pick between her request for another instrument and another sport to gauge which was a stronger talent as the tie breaker as she’s equally keen on both and can’t pick when I’ve asked her to narrow it down.

She reads voraciously. She does coding at school (used to out of school too but then it clashed when she moved up swimming levels so cancelled it) and likes doing Sudoku and logic puzzles and we play a variety of games as a family for fun.

I’m not telling her what interests to pursue. She is just keen to try everything she hears about and loves everything she does. It’s a constant conversation of trying to create limits so she doesn’t get too tired and has enough time for downtime, family time and unstructured play.

Have you asked her music teacher? Surely they could give you an opinion based on her achievement? Are they entering her into the grade 1 exam soon where you will get feedback? I think it’s quite unusual to start playing at 4 and be having 2 lessons a week so difficult to compare. She’s obviously talented and if she’s motivated to practice every day with no prompting I’d say that’s unusual and a sign that she will progress faster than others. Some people can play by ear. They’re musical and obviously talented but not necessarily the best musicians overall and if you’re thinking of a professional career/ music conservatoire etc she would need to be absolutely exceptional.

Exceptional I’d say! What a wonderful aptitude to have.

If she wants to learn a second instrument might she be interested in strings? Despite the awful noise they make at first, if she has brilliant pitch, she has the chance of being good and almost every orchestra or band has more than one violin or cello, so they open up a lot of ways of playing music socially in Youth Orchestras/ uni societies/ local amateur orchestras and quartets etc. so she gets to experience the buzz and joy of ensemble playing. It’s also helpful that violins and cellos come in quarter sizes. Most music shops will do trade-ins as she grows that make it less ruinously expensive than it sounds.

I play the piano to a bog standard Grade 7 level and it’s brought me great pleasure over my life, I wasn’t gifted as your DD is, my DD1 learned violin and I think playing in the Youth Orchestra and going on tour to Vienna with it, were wonderful experiences for her.

Anecdotally, I suspect that learning an instrument may do interesting stuff to neural networks and bring broader benefits than the immediately obvious ones.

Sorry! I’ve now read your update about her expressing an interest in the cello. Fantastic! Your idea of letting her try violin and cello and choosing between then sounds perfect.

As a total ignoramus about sport, I’d encourage tennis over gymnastics as the latter comes with higher injury and body consciousness issues and if she is any good, potentially a lot of pressure. The former would be socially and physically beneficial for her for the rest of my life. From my daughter’s house I see women into their 60s and 70s having a great time playing doubles sumner and winter on the village tennis club courts.

her life 😱

@LondonGirl83 I did play a fairly wide range, especially as I got older. A good teacher should be able to suggest things that will challenge her and develop her skills, but still be fun. For instance, I have very fond memories of playing through this book which I think is around grade 1/2 standard. Personally I found a lot of the exam pieces quite boring, and may well have lost interest if I'd always had the spectre of an exam on the horizon.

@BungleandGeorge she only has piano lessons once a week. I’m not sure why you’ve said twice. Her teacher has commented on her being talented but I’ve never asked how talented. I’m asking now only as I’m thinking through new activities for next term and I won’t see her teacher again until after the Christmas break.

@LightDrizzle I wouldn’t want her to pursue gymnastics seriously either and I think it’s unlikely. She’s very tall and skinny which isn’t a gymnast’s physique. She’s generally good at sport but a particularly fast runner which I think will be her sport eventually as she runs non-stop and is the fastest in her year. Her friends are doing gymnastics which is why she wants to and her PE coach at school recommends it for developing general athleticism and transferable sporting skills.

If you are going to introduce violin or cello do not let her teach herself as it is really really important to get the correct technique for holding and using the bow/instrument etc from the start. I have a DC who ended up having to give up the cello as their initial teacher taught them so badly they ended up injuring themselves.

So either go for an instrument properly taught and perhaps a family acitivty like junior parkrun if you have one near you or go for a sport and perhaps a fairly laid back choir?

@LondonGirl83 i thought she was having 2 because you mention her music teacher at school and her private piano teacher.
I’d either ask her to choose one more activity and book it when she has or if you want to make a decision based on likely talent wait and speak to
her Teachers. Presumably school sport she can join whenever and it’s unlikely much is going to get sorted out over the Christmas break.

She has music at school but not piano lessons. At her age, the music at school is the Kodaly system.

As I’ve explained, when I’ve asked her she cannot decide when so I’m picking and I’ve made my decision now.

She sounds very much like my DD. Excellent at anything she wants to do. Diagnosed as ADHD once she went to high school. If exceptionally musical , Cheethams take DC from Yr3 to board

I can't remember not being able to name notes, transpose, play by ear etc. It is something you are born with I think. However this does not translate to me being excellent as a musician, far from it. Initially, I was way ahead of the game as anyone who can get a tune from an instrument at 3 years old is (I started at 2). But gradually, those who had more natural ability to play took over and by secondary school I was an also ran in the orchestra. I guess I'm saying let your DD discover what she is good at and go with that. It may or may not end up being music. And she'll always have an awesome party trick with the sense of pitch!

Your description of your daughter reminds me of my son at a similar age, and I think plenty of others agree with my feeling that he's pretty special musically (he's now 17). His favoured musical area is composing and he has always been interested in chords and harmony. Also into maths, coding etc etc. Applying to study maths at uni.

I've always say that, if a child gets going on one instrument, eventually it is useful for them to have piano + a "social" instrument ie one that is commonly played in groups with others. Strings are good, recorder is excellent if you have access to a good group/teacher (my daughter was lucky that way and later took proper lessons for a while, when she took up clarinet much later there was plenty that was helpful). At 5 it will be a combination of what instrument(s) she is drawn to, and what teacher you can access who knows how to teach younger children and - importantly - will instill good habits without holding her back.

I'm actually a Suzuki violin teacher and currently have two children who came to me at around 6 or so having already started piano. They definitely fall into my subgroup of students for whom I feel "spoilt" because they are so easy to teach :) You may or may not find a Suzuki teacher for an instrument your daughter is interested in that you can get to; also we do tend to expect attendance at group lessons as well as individual sessions - some teachers do both weekly, others fortnightly or less often. So be prepared to decide whether you and a teacher form the right fit, you'll need to listen to their expectations and be honest about what is achievable in your daughter's timetable!

It's great that your daughter is getting Kodaly based music at school - it is such a powerful approach to developing musical understanding and true musical literacy.

@Pythonesque I agree on Kodaly. She really understands rhythm notation very well-- it the easiest element of her sight-reading and I credit Kodaly with that.

Would you be able to explain the benefits of Suzuki for me and how the approach differs for traditional instruction, particularly for string instruments?

That's interesting what you say about composition being your son's strength. I'm not sure if I mentioned it already but I already feel that if my DD carries on with music it will be in that sphere rather than as a pure performer and not necessarily classical music either.

Hello Tia -

I'm a professional musician and college professor. What you've described is indeed exceptional for a 5 year - even for a non-trained person of any age at all. She certainly has tremendous potential for a lifelong passion/career in music. But she must love it, and it sounds like she has many interests, some of which may be fleeting. The difficulty with most music training for kids is that music is often taught as a solo activity, and kids want to be with others, that's why they get interested in sports - the peers and group activities are much more attractive for a young child than sitting alone at the piano. So i recommend looking for high end ( not necessarily expensive) classes, choral and performance opportunities in your area. Private lessons are important to get to a professional level, but your child is so gifted, that her primary need is exposure to good music. If you're near any colleges, they should have weekend classes for kids, or look for a professional level children's choir that performs several times a year. There are even places where small children play together in bands, although sometimes the quality is poor, so you have to look around. Introducer her to many different styles of music as well. Take her to live concerts and musicals as often as possible. Have fun!

@Momscarer her private school had a lot of musical ensembles and a choir (it’s stronger on music than even a typical private school) so she’ll have lots of opportunities I think if she wants them.

I really don’t see her as a professional musician. The only reason I said she might write music is she has a very strong intuition for composition. When practicing her sight reading book for instance she used to complain that it didn’t ‘sound’ like music as the simple exercises often didn’t resolve themselves as she’d anticipate they should or were just clunky.

I am incredulous by the suggestion that a child could get to grade 8 level in 2 instruments at age 8. I simply don’t believe this. My daughter has been going to Colourstrings since age 4, is very musical, and we are not even talking about grades and she is nearly 7. At the best conservatoires they don’t talk about grades either at this age. Even if a child is exceptionally gifted, this is just not the right focus at all. Also there is a world of difference between scraping a pass and getting a distinction. A distinction at that age for even grade 5 ABRSM is almost unheard of.