Schooling in UK or USA

[mesha123]

Hi,

My husband is considering moving to USA due to a work opportunity there.

My Dd is currently in year 4. I am not sure about the education system in USA and whether it is better then UK.

I am quite worried especially because not only it's a new country but also might be difficult for little one to settle down in a new place, new systems and environment.

Any thoughts please?

@mathanxiety
Your comment stating as fact the notion that the average American student doesn't get as good an education is bullshit.

The evidence says otherwise. There is no other explanation for why 15yr old U.K. students score significantly better than 15 yr old US students on Maths, Science and Reading.

Trying to bring oxbridge into the argument is a mistake on your part because obviously not everyone in the UK has a shot at Oxbridge. Not everyone in the US can reasonably expect to get into Yale, Harvard, Princeton, U Chicago, Stanford, etc. either.

I know my DCs would not have done as well if they’d stayed in a US school. If you’re confident with your decision, then I don’t see how my experience impacts you.

It's like most of America: in rich places, the quality of education will be far above almost anything in the UK. In poor places, it will be worse.

(Just like, if you have excellent health care, health care in America will be heads and shoulders above anything in the UK; if you don't, you're fucked.)

The state schools in Palo Alto, for instance, are terrifying palaces of high achieving genius. Indeed, the only thing I'd worry about is the intense pressure placed on some of the students to succeed. Paly and Gunn are two of the best state schools in the country.

There are good state schools in San Francisco too. This website can be helpful; lots of choices to play with: www.niche.com/k12/search/best-schools/t/san-francisco-san-francisco-ca/

Using official data from international and national standardised tests is absolutely a valid way to measure the performance of schools. You and others have asked me to back up my experience with data, and I have. So not sure how this means I have no direct experience with or knowledge of public education in the US. You are just sitting there insisting on how fabulous certain unnamed schools are without providing any data to back that up. I haven’t disagreed that there is huge variability school to school but that is true in both the US and U.K.

Exactly this.

So I’ll keep this simpler, and nicer as obviously I’ve offended you and you’ve had my response deleted.

You’re changing goal posts. You cannot argue that actual national and international school performance data doesn’t exist and doesn’t say what you wish it said, so now you’re saying essentially why did I bring up all the US when the OP is going to San Fran.

Well, there is a simple explanation for that. My initial post was from before I clocked the OPs update as to where exactly she was going in the US. My next post, which is also the very next post in the thread talked specifically about schools in San Fran.

So you see, you didn’t need to do this long conversation about US schools in general, because I’d already posted about San Fran specifically. This whole conversation hasn’t been about you schooling me on how useless the data is for looking at San Fran because I obviously already knew that.

You’re the one using ad hominems:
And it also makes me suspicious that you have no direct experience or detailed knowledge of public education in the US.

I’ve never said it was a whole system. That’s an allegation you have made up.

And what else should I use to back up the advice I gave if not current official statistics and ratings? Should I be casting aspersions on you instead? That’s a toxic way to have a conversation.

You seem very attached and defensive of Illinois. Have you lived anywhere else in the US? I have lived in PA, CT, OH, CO, NM, NY and FL. My experience with US schools are:
As a student: PA, CT, CO, NM
As a parent: FL

My DH is American and he was a student in: PA, OH, CO, NM, and NY

I also have nephews and nieces currently in US schools in: OR, CA, PA, OH, and FL and am in regular contact with my DBs and DSis

There's currently a move towards more phonics in schools. The minute someone says "Common core math," though, I know they don't know what they're saying. CCSS only specifies what is to be taught, not how. There are different curricula and some are better than others. The one my kids got was solid; my oldest is in AP Calculus BC now.

I was unhappy with English teaching in elementary school as the emphasis was on a skills based curriculum--emphasizing abstract skills that can be applied to any piece of text. There's some movement away from that, which is good; my youngest is getting a more coherent curriculum. The weakness of elementary school, I would say, is social studies. American teachers are taught that there's little point teaching social studies and science in K-2 as in those grades, students are learning to read and then they read to learn. Second, there's also an article of faith that kids aren't ready to learn world history until they learn about things close to them. (I don't know how they come up with these theories as they've clearly not met kids who are obsessed with ancient Egypt etc!) Therefore you learn state history in 4th grade and begin with more American history in 5th. There is one increasingly popular curriculum, Core Knowledge, that challenges that and teaches more world history at an earlier age. There's a tendency to caricature Americans as just not interested in the world; I don't think that's quite accurate.

One of mine does zero sport, and the other two didn't want to get into the higher competitive things, so there are kids who don't. Do be aware that in affluent suburbs the competition in some sports is off the charts and kids go into expensive, time sucking club competition far too early. There are plenty of other things for children to do besides sport.

Things I have liked here: elementary school was really warm and caring, lots of emphasis on social-emotional learning especially in early grades. Parents are involved. Classes were smaller in the early primary grades; more like 20 to a class. My autistic kids were fully supported in a regular school with specialist teachers and one was in a co-taught class with a regular teacher and a special education teacher paired together.

@Onnabugeisha

You 100% dismissed American education as a whole. I'm on my phone right now but as soon as I get to my PC I will quote your remarks.

Questioning your credentials to comment on a thread about American education isn't an ad hominem, especially when you are the only commentator on the entire thread making the argument you are making, and relying on international test scores to back it up.

Your posts directed at me continue to be insulting on a personal level.

@Onnabugeisha

My DCs did very well in the American education system. They went to a RC elementary (K-8), then on to the public high school and from there to highly selective universities. They were by no means the only graduates of the high school heading to prestigious universities.

If your DCs didn't benefit from the American schools they attended, then maybe the schools weren't a good fit for them. It doesn't mean that all American schools suck. And the fact that your DCs went to Oxbridge after their stint in a British school doesn't mean that only British schools are capable of sending students to prestigious and highly selective universities. Again, I'll remind you that droves of American students are accepted into highly selective American universities every year, despite their allegedly woefully inadequate schools.

I live in a nice suburb of a major city, where there is a highly educated population, and high property taxes which fund excellent public schools. The facilities are fantastic. The school sends dozens of students to highly selective universities and colleges every year.

Friends moved to SF when one of their kids was in Yr 4 and other was a bit older. They found that choosing where to live was vital for finding a good school and they had to live in the suburbs as the inner urban areas of most cities are poorer and therefore the schools are not as good. They stayed for 3 years, had a great time. They live in Australia so I can’t comment on reintegration to the UK system. I know kids who’ve moved between countries at various stages of their education and they’ve all been fine But we don’t put our kids through stressful exams until 17/18 so there’s more time to adjust than you would have in the UK.

I went to school in the US and in the UK and the US system was miles better. A typical US High School (I lived in the Mid West, so no where fancy) is very similar to one of the best British public schools. In our tiny school, we had everything: daily games coaching and matches, instrumental lessons, choir, band, orchestra, drama, musical theatre, student committees, big balls (not only proms, there was Homecoming, too), tennis, swimming, track, student newspaper, debating - teachers were committed to school 8am to 10pm, always on hand. Many more subjects to choose from, including focus on practical subjects like electronics, DT, home economics. I am now paying 10s of thousands each year to send my dc to a leading public (boarding) school as day pupils, but overall, I reckon they have less choice then I had at my below average state school. It's also nice that it sll starts one year later, with Kindergarten at 5 rather than reception at 4. The gun crimes are shocking though. But then in the UK it's knife crime spiralling out of control. Being cut up with a machete ir a zombie knife in the UK on the way to school is pretty scary, too.

I went on to Oxford and then to Princeton from my small town High School and was performing and graduating in top 5% at Oxford, so US High Schools do teach you some academic stuff, too.

I never said “all American schools suck” nor did I say “… allegedly woefully inadequate schools“ or anything of the sort really.

🤨 You are arguing against something that I never said.

I have initially posted the fact that the average American school is worse than the average U.K. school.

When I noticed the OP was going to San Fran I posted that the schools there are excellent and much better than U.K. schools (comparing to the average).

Then after being asked to support my first post as to “the basis for my opinion”, I backed this up with official international statistics that show it is true that on average U.K. schools are better than US schools. I said also to avoid the south and Midwest, because these regions’ average tend to be either at or below the US average. When you challenged me on Illinois, I posted the state performance statistics showing that it is an average state scoring close to the US National average backing up my regional assessment at having included Illinois.

@Onnabugeisha

You need to keep better track of what you've said here.

You're just splitting hairs now.

Rather you should keep better track of what I’ve said and stop making things up.

I note you said
“My DCs did very well in the American education system. They went to a RC elementary (K-8), then on to the public high school and from there to highly selective universities.”

So does this mean you have zero experience as a parent with U.K. schools? Kindergarten though University all in the US means, what, zero time in a UK school does it not?

If so, you do not have any recent or relevant insight on US vs U.K. schools. You don’t know anything about U.K. schools from the perspective of a parent. You might have gone to a few as a child, what thirty plus years ago?

Lol, being Irish, I have several relatives and a lot of old school friends who have already dealt with or who are still dealing with the British education 'system'. In all I have about 20 people I share observations with on a personal basis. I know a lot about UK schools from the perspective of a parent, and also from a professional perspective from people working in the same area as me.

@Onnabugeisha

^Generally, the US public education system is worse than the U.K. state system.
A few States, the public schools are as good as or better, but these are expensive areas to live: NY, CA, MA, PA for example. States to avoid are all the southern states and all the midwestern states. If you are in one of those states, look into tuition paying private schools.^

A general dismissal of all the public schools in a vast area of the US is what I'm looking at here. Do you see something else?

.....
Yes well, each state ranks and rates it’s own schools so of course every state has schools that are highly ranked and what not. But on average, these states’ public schools are below the national average and below the U.K. average state school.

Yes, there are variations within each state.
But keep on insisting that all US education is worse than all UK education and keep on including data on the US as a whole, and individual states, if, as it seems, you really want to fill your boots.

.....
Yes, I’ve generalised. Nothing wrong with that at all. And no, at an international British school you won’t say the pledge of allegiance because it’s not a US school and you also would not be taught a US curriculum either.

There is a problem with generalisation.
You yourself admit in your comment on SF schools that it's not useful.
So it's nothing but a cheap shot at education in America.
.....

So, she’s at a Chicago elementary school and is doing great, well I’m glad for her, but you have to realise that on average the schools in your State are worse than the average school in the U.K. In addition, there’s not much difference in primary vs elementary…the US really falls behind when the kids get to secondary.

My statement makes perfect sense in terms of US vs U.K. comparison as a whole. Just look at the OECD rankings. Your claim there’s no one system doesn’t matter really. It’s a bit like saying we should ignore the US rankings because it’s an average of 50 States plus PR and ignore the U.K. ranking because it’s an average of 4 countries.

No, you should recognise its irrelevance because you have already done so. The fact that there's no one system is the only important element here, and you have acknowledged that in your comment on SF schools.
Maybe you're not paying attention to what you're posting.

.....
I’ve never said it was a whole system. That’s an allegation you have made up.
You literally used the phrase Generally, the US public education system...

And what else should I use to back up the advice I gave if not current official statistics and ratings?

Individual stats from school districts would be really useful, and you have acknowledged exactly that with your comment on SF schools.

......
The pledge of allegiance wasn’t a stereotype, if you go back to my initial post, it’s what freaked out my British DCs when we lived in the US for four years. And, no the public schools sucked. Really sucked. It hurt my DCs education and I was that relieved when we got back.

That's an all around, generalised swipe at American education.
What specific school are you talking about here?

............
You’re changing goal posts. You cannot argue that actual national and international school performance data doesn’t exist and doesn’t say what you wish it said, so now you’re saying essentially why did I bring up all the US when the OP is going to San Fran.

Well, there is a simple explanation for that. My initial post was from before I clocked the OPs update as to where exactly she was going in the US. My next post, which is also the very next post in the thread talked specifically about schools in San Fran.

Yeah, I have a simple explanation for that too.
You are bigoted against all things American.
If you're not, then why did you bring up the entire US?

So you see, you didn’t need to do this long conversation about US schools in general, because I’d already posted about San Fran specifically.

You are the poster who posted a long diatribe against American schools. You have offered data from international tests to back up your contention that all American public schools suck, and you continue to state that, essentially contradicting yourself.

This whole conversation hasn’t been about you schooling me on how useless the data is for looking at San Fran because I obviously already knew that.

Yes the generalised data you posted is useless and irrelevant.
You have posted the glimmer of recognition that individual results may vary.

.....
If you don't understand how massively education varies by locality in the US then you really shouldn't be making such sweeping statements.

I do, but short of drilling down into cities and what not, there is nothing wrong with generalising at a regional level.

Huzzah!
You have realised that drilling down into individual cities 'and whatnot' you might find out (1) how averages are arrived at and (2) why averages at the state level and national level are not actually useful at all.

Averages won't tell you the national ranking of individual public schools, which is the only meaningful statistic anyone should use.

@mesha123 my final piece, you will only get mostly negatively biased views here with people painting the picture that your children are doomed to a life of failure if they school in the US as opposed to a guaranteed life or success in the Uk.

Many of the views are based on stereotypes and exaggerations which for some reason Brits then to have when it comes to the US.

You will get better views from actual Bria who actually live in the US on britishexpats.com/forum/
not people who have views from reading the dailymail and Reddit and Quora. FYI Reddit and Quora are very anti American so you will not get any good actual information there.

there are lots of schooling posts on British expats already that you can learn from and you can also ask and you will get more measured matures answers not “avoid all of the Midwest” that was so stupid lol.

And as I said earlier with your level of anxiety and concern I would just skip it as you will most likely go there comparing everything to the UK and be miserable.

"And as I said earlier with your level of anxiety and concern I would just skip it as you will most likely go there comparing everything to the UK and be miserable."

Like seriously lol.

The whole point of posting here was to get ideas and personal experiences of people.

No need to pass negative comments like your level of anxiety . First you don't know me. And second obviously someone would likely be concerned about things in a completely new place.

Everyone including you have a right to their opinions and thoughts. But saying I will be miserable and keep comparing stuff that's just too much and out of line.

@NellyBarney

Yes agree

@mesha123 i reread my message and I apologize. I was frustrated by the people who just type generic stereotypical posts.

My point stands you will get more balanced information from British expats forums as these are Brit’s currently living in the US and there are already loads of posts about schooling. I found the forum very useful when we were moving to Chicago 7 years ago. I started with YouTube and Reddit and Quora and found it was just the typical stereotypical remarks with no substance. Every YouTube video was wow Americans as this wow Americans are that etc.

One person who provides very balanced nice videos about life in America is Lawrence Brown who runs the channel lost in the pond. m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl4chLcvkLQ

He lives in Chicago so no SF but he also covers general American life etc different from the clickbait type videos you will find dominate YouTube. You will see from the comments at appreciation from Americans for someone who takes the time to understand them not people
who just create shock meditative clickbait videos which then spins into anti American comments.

Is your move a permanent one or for a few years? Ours was a permanent move through I transferred with one of the big 4 firms but we have since both changed jobs and are doing very well. The US is not perfect, hell no there’s a lot that does my head in here but we’ve also loved our time here so far.

I forgot to add Lawrence is a Brit married to an American lady. I could t add his homepage as MN was trying to link it to someone’s profile here but you can get there from that video or just search “Lost in the Pond” on YouTube.

We have relatives over in SF and the kids went to state school there and seem fine.
From my experience they weren't worried about crime much (the cousins in South Africa, on the other hand ..!).
If otherwise it's a good move and the company is providing sensible support re the move, accommodation costs, health insurance etc, I wouldn't let worries about schools stop you.
How much people study at specific stages, and HOW they study, differs from country to country, but overall my American colleagues seemed to do better or as well as we did in the UK, and a lot were still engaged In continuing education, whereas sometimes the UK lot were a bit burned out and fed up of formal learning.

@Cantstandbullshit

Thanks a lot. Will definitely check out the link

@Fenella123

Yes true about Africa and agree.