"I went to huge lengths to get my child into the locat RC school because the results are brilliant - imagine my horror when they came home saying that contraception is a sin - what should I do?"

[seeker]

Do you thing there are going to be a lot of threads like this in the future?

pmsl @ so many posters beibng too irate to notice Seeker was starting a debate ratehr than quoting from personal experiance

the nuns taught the sex ed at my dhs catholic school. Always makes me laugh.

Are we going to have lots of these threads - possibly.
Will we sympathise - probably not.
Daft buggers.

hurricane the point of my posts was to illustrate how much parenting is done through schools becuse the govt cannot be fucked to spend money on parenting classes. i object to a prevailing sructure being bastardised by the govt takeover of parenting

which is quite different from me being against the HPV vaccine - and not what isaid at all.

i a catholic and sending my children to a catholic school i expect that they will recieve catholic princples withreard to sex ed

however when a troupe come into school, mycildren - indeed the whole year are taken out of class for what is aomething akin to the silver ring thing - i wonder why i as a paretn have not ben informed about i

thi - i think you will agree is quite difference from being taught about abstinance ( as they were today) something which i would expect.

if you are missing the point in its entirity by picking at each individual point - what can i say? my "problem" is that schools are parenting becuase ther isa lack of investment in parents

I think perhaps your points are not begin desperately well expressed. You are using lots of examples of wonderful things that are done through schools (like vaccinations which, I for one, am incredibly grateful for) to make a point that schools are taking over parenting.

I don't think this makes any sense. It's absolutely a good thing that schools do these wonderful things which quite often parents can't or won't (like vaccinate or teach about different religions or give kids a sense that their school is a communtiy itself and part of a wider community also).

Your problem about the hippy people coming into your kids' school is specific to your school and many would see in keeping with its Catholic nature and Catholic values and attitudes to sex. It is a problem which you need to take up with your school but also reinforces the point that why on earth would you send your kids to a school which has very particular attitudes and values and then don't agree with them conveying these? I repeat state schools that are not faith schools DO NOT convey these messages about sex and abstincne and contraception that you are talking about. So your problem is not with the govenment or the National Curriculum or 'the education system' though you say it is.

I do not think state schools do take over parenting. By teaching cooking, having assemblies, teaching respect for other relgiions etc etc they are merely supporting the good parenting which already takes place and going some way to help educate children into these things where they don't get this education at home.

What exactly is the problem with that?? Nothing.

I am a teacher at 6th form level though I have taught at secondary and been involved in PSHE and assemblies through the pastoral system as a form tutor. Assembleis and PSHE and registration etc have always existed (it was called EPR when I was in secondary school 20 years ago). They take up a minority of the school timetable and do not replace or threaten the teaching of maths or English or anything else. And although I don't particularly like teaching this stuff and students often don't particularly like taking part in it I still see these things as absolutely important in amongst other things fostering that sense of a school community which is essential to success but also educating kids about sex, morality, health etc etc.

What you are doing is projecting your personal problems with 1 particular aspect of one partiuclar and CATHOLIC school onto the education system and the govenment in general. And I object to this.

I also would detest any school preaching abstincne to my kids or giving any other negative messages about sex or contraception. This is why I don't send my kids to a faith school and hate the very idea of faith schools.

And for your information although there is much more work to be done this GOvt has done more than any other in terms of investing in parents.

Haven't you heard of SUre Start? And haven't you ever met your Health Visitor? And THERE ARE parening classes.

I'm not saying any of the above are perfect but they DO EXIST. So you are wrong on so many levels.

As I said THERE ARE parenting classes which for some are offered as an alternative to a fine and prison sentnece for example where a parenign isn't getting a child to school.

But I imagine given your own attitudes to the Govt that if parenting classes and continued visits from health professionals etc were made compulsory for all parents you would be the very first to object with your 'nanny state, intervention, why can't you just let me parent my kids line'.

So I do continue to wonder what exactly your problem is.

Except that some external organisation came into your kids CATHOLIC school who didn't think sex or contraception was a great idea (what a shocker in a Catholic school!) which would horrify me too and is why my kids do not go to a faith school and therefore get some quite sensible and posiitve and factually accruate advice about sex and contraception thorugh the NATIONAL CURRICULUM and PSHE.

your not reading my posts its not that i am not expressing or writing well.

i have explained twice about the hippies

youare not reading

i unerstand that you have a diferent point of view and how wonderful it is to be able to talk these views through with other people. the essence of mumsnet entirely.

i hear that yo think the things i mentioned are good things when done through school

i dont think you her that i do not disagree that they are great things

i disagree that they are done through schools

i do think that there shouls be parenting classes for all and i dont think that it is fair for you to project that i would be screaming nany state at the suggestion

third time nearly lucky?

as a catholic i sent my kids to a catholic school - i am a practising catholic and i believe in many of its principles

i agree that people who are neither catholic nor believe in the prmciles of catholisicm really have an argument when they doth protest that catholic principles are taught in a catholic school.

i suggest that i fully expect within a catholic school that subjects such as i have mentioned would be taught within the classroom.

however when an external agency come ino the school. when my children are taken out of normal lessons. and when they are not teaching but dramatizing - i think that this would be called an event.

usually within this school such events usually involve the parents. i expressed surpise that this didn't and that the only time i had heard about it was after the event.

this is rather diferent i fellpersonally than taking umbridge with the curriculum or ethos in its totality - which i dont.

i hope i have better explained myself hurricane.

By Bridie3 on Wed 30-Jan-08 14:53:55
Here's an idea for those who hate faith schools.

I like it Bridie, I like it. why don't they get cracking.

cunty, are you sure the 'tambourine toting' christians at your son's school were hippies?

ime, these christians are always clean faced, earnest (if you are American which you are not but you know the sort) fundamental christian Republican types.

and wasn't the Joy of Sex bible brought out by erm, hippies?

sorry for the diversion.

Kiskidee--I think Harpsicordcarrier made the point that the govt. has put the dampners on this. I must admit, it doesn't seem fair.

That said, the founders of the Catholic schools were in many cases disenfranchised Catholics, banned from pretty well every part of British public life. They raised money from often very poor congregations.

I think it would be very interesting to see how a group of openly humanist, say, schools compared with the faith schools. It would introduce real competition, which would be good for all of us. But one word of caution--there'd need to be something to replace the religious element: a firm stance on public service and ethics, for example.

i agree completely how a disenfranchised section of the population have created an institution which is under attack basically for its overall success.

I wonder if this arguement was about Jewish schools instead of catholic ones if the nay sayers would be so vociferous.

I think my main point Custy is that in a non-faith school kids are NOT given the sort of messages about sex which you describe either by the teachers, the curriculum or outside agencies (hippies or otherwise). In your earlier post you said your gripe was against the 'education system' but the experience your kids had was nothing to do with the education system at all.

I have to say I thought that abstaining from sex (outside of marriage) and avoiding contraception were pretty much part of the Catholic ethos. And it sounds like this was exactly the sort of message that the external organisation was giving so I am still a little surprised at your surprise and concern. But I do not want to get into a debate about the ins and outs of Catholic teaching on sex. And since I do not want my kids to get indoctrinated into any sort of religious values and attitudes (as opposed to learning about and learning to be tolerant about different relgiison which I'm very happy for them to learn through the National Curriculum and PSHE) I have not chosen to send my kids to a faith school. I would be more than pissed off if the sort of thing you described happened at my kids' school but it wouldn't and couldn't.

In suggesting that vaccinations, cooking lessons, PSHE and whatever other examples you used are good things but should not be taught or administered in schools again I think you are unusual.

Is there anyone else out there who objects to these things being taught in school or administered through schools? As I said, I am grateful for all the things schools do for all sorts of reasons. If I had to take time off work to get my kids to the doctor for their BCG because some parents would rather do this (why? why? why)) I would not be happy. I would also have to take my kids OUT OF SCHOOL so that they would miss considerably more time than the 20 minutes or so they miss currently.

And as I've said I actually think cooking lessons are a great idea (and not exactly a new idea. I had cooking lessons 20 years ago as did my mother 50 years ago). I also think PSHE and assemblies etc etc are very important in fostering a sense of community and shared values in a school and getting kids to be more tolerant and understanding in the wider community. Kids get a chance to be rewarded in assembly which helps a schools aspirations and success. Schools are not just for learning about Pythagoras thank god.

These things do not interfere with the teaching of maths etc. They make up a tiny but important part of the school week.

As far as investing in parents goes I've already said that this already happens and I agree with you that more needs to be done including educating people about children and parenting before they become parents. But guess what Custy this also already happens. In a great many schools it's dealt with as part of PSHE.

I shall be interested to find out, Seeker, having just applied to the local RC school, as it is the closest one to us and, er, the results are good! But not being RC and not having gone to any great lengths beyond a pointless begging letter & being unable to produce so much as baptism certificate, I was just given a bit of a dressing down by the school secretary for my effrontery in applying, . " Has anyone explained this to you?" she said pityingly.

DS has about as much chance of getting in as I do of winning Euro Millions and the National Lottery on the same day. If he does get in, my bed is well & truly made and DH will remind me of it constantly...

And you were saying earlier that the Govt takes on the role of administering eye tests/ vaccinations/ religious education etc because they don't trust the parents to do it.

Well there ARE a lot of parents (though maybe a minority) who actually couldn't or wouldn't do these things (not to mention the added burden on the NHS who would have the added burden of adminstering vaccinations etc individually thourh doctors surgeries) and apart from the fact that their kids would suffer needlessly because of this it would have a negative impact on the whole of society.

I DO teach my kids about healthy eating and cooking and respecting other religions etc but I have no problem at all with my parenting being supported by the education and discussion which takes place at school amongst both professionals and amongst the chidlren themselves. Who, apart from you, else does?

one again you tured my "gripe" into a lesson in catholacism - proof need that you are not reading correctly.

i have explaned 3 times - ou ar reading what you wish and turning that into something which has got a whole lot of nothing to do with any argmnt i am making.

secondly, i think we can agree to dsagree n tegovt using the educatin system to administer practices which it doesn't trust the parent population to - nd will not invest in.

i am glad youhave n problem with the education being used this way - you see it as support- i see it as time my children should be learning which medical thngs and others should not be done trough the school systemy becuase the govt cannot be fucked funding parenting clases to force cultural change somewhat like surestart did with breastfeeding to some extent.

I'm sorry Custardo but you are just ignoring my points and your arguments are full of contadictions. In fact, none of your arguments stand up at all really.

The government DOES fund parenting classes. Here's a link: www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/family_matters/you_lessons.shtml

There are voluntary parenting classes which are free at most community centres and often in schools. There are also parenting courses which parents can opt for in place of fines and prison sentences for example when their kids refuse school.

But the govt wisely understands that a few classes alone is not going to turn anyone into a good parent which is why they have invested millions in Sure Start. I've got a Sure Start centre about 5 mins away from my house. They offer free play sessions, sessions on healthy eating, sessions on helping your kids tell stories, coffee mornings etc ....

There are also have Health Visitors who provide a great deal of support to a great many parents on a long-term basis when parents are really struggling. They also offer parenting classes including ones on managining behaviour. There are also free ante-natal classes (and post-natal classes in many areas). There is also a scheme where volunteers can go and support new mothers who are struggling. Is it called Home Start or somethign? We take these things for granted but you don't get them in most countries. You get very little support in the U.S and no midwife visits or HEalth Visitors there or I think in Eurpose (certainly not in Switzerland))You may argue that many of these things don't work as well as they could do and I might agree with you but you cannot argue that the 'Govt cannot be fucked funding parenting classes' because this is just wrong.

I think you'll find that if the Govt made parenting classes compulsory for all parents there would be an outcry (and I'm surprised that you would support this given your earlier complaints about the Govt intervening too much in decisions and behaviours which you personall felt should be up to individula families). But there IS education on parenting, contraception, respect for others (all important for parents, helath etc etc through the National Curriculum and through PSHE in schools (yet you object to PSHE).

The only 'practices' which the Govt administers through the school system which you have said that you object to are vaccinations and eye tests (I think we are now agreed that the external organisation which came to your school to tell the kids to abstain from sex was specific to this school and only possible because it was a faith school and not a message generally conveyed throug the education system?). I really think that you are in a tiny minority of people who do object to this but your reasoning again is flawed. Don't you think that if parents had to take their kids out of school for vaccinations and eye tests etc etc that their education (and everyone else's not to mention the added burden on the NHS) would cause more disruption to their education than taking them out of lessons for 20 minutes. Do you also object to school photos?

And it's not a question of the Govt not 'trusting' parents. It's a fact that if vaccinating your child was left to parents then not all would do it leaving not only the kids vulnerable but everyone else's kids becuase of the risk of infection. A few parenting classes are not going to mean that every parent is able or willing to take time off work or whatever they're doing, take their kids out of school, make an appointment at the doctor's and get them vaccinated. What about kids in care for example? I have to confess that I've been putting off my dc2's MMR booster for exactly these reasons (it's really inconvenient to get time of work and take her out of nursery and to get an appt at all).

I repeat again that I am grateful for all the things schools do from photographs to eye tests. And teachers are often the ones to pick up health problems, hearing problems, child abuse etc etc where parents don't. Do you think we should stop doing this too?

What else do you object to schools adminstering? PSHE? But I've already said that this can be quite a valuable way of educating kids about parenting for example. But I remember teaching Yr 7 PSHE about first aid while Yr 9 got taught proper sex education (contraception and an opportunity to discuss attitudes to sex) in the non-faith school I worked at. Also careers advice, healthy eating and so on.

And again, PSHE (under different names), assemblies etc have always existed. They take up a tiny minority of timetable and do not replace or get in the way of maths etc etc

i have tried being civil what is with your fucking attitude?

"The government DOES fund parenting classes"

not for all - for poor people - for ciminals - for those who want to better their skills voluntarily maybe but not for all....i think i made that clear - with the 'cultural shift' bit- but only poor parents are bad parents right? my dh worked for sure start ad the pair of us have been community workers for over ten years. i have lived and worked with very poor sections of society - i know very well what goes on in communities thank you very much and you are only talking about poor communities. sure start may inadvertanly cover some M/C areas but the funding is specifically to raise standards within poor communities.

yohave expressed your surprise more than once at my stance - but i hope now that you can see that i abhor society as a whole blaming the 'rot' on ...those poor people whilst up here in M/C land its all okay thanks - that you understand why i have the view that i do - even if you dont agree with it. becuase it is not through small pepperpoted sections of society tht there will arise a cultural shift in the responsabiliies of being a parent.

"But there IS education on parenting, contraception, respect for others (all important for parents, helath etc etc through the National Curriculum and through PSHE in schools (yet you object to PSHE)"

YES becuase good parents should do this. not schools...getting my drift yet?

"Don't you think that if parents had to take their kids out of school for vaccinations and eye tests etc etc that their education (and everyone else's not to mention the added burden on the NHS) would cause more disruption to their education than taking them out of lessons for 20 minutes. Do you also object to school photos?"

school photos - a memory of your childs time at school? no i dont object to those - but you are welcome to your mockery.

i disagree that the total of injections and the ones to come and eye tests - the taking the children out of class to the area which they have to conducthese things and the return is a mere 20 mins in totality.

what i thnk you fail to understand is this - where does this stop? why the mass medication through schools? - i can find thetime to take my children to the doctors when they were babies and they neeed shots why does the schools system take over this parenting role?

why do i arrange asthma checks? hearing tests? additional eye tests? but i am not trusted with that other part. and thats not the only part. becuase we as parents ae not trusted to teach our children about a healthy lifestyle in totality. the culture/knowledge/resources arn't there.

"And it's not a question of the Govt not 'trusting' parents. It's a fact that if vaccinating your child was left to parents then not all would do it leaving not only the kids vulnerable but everyone else's kids becuase of the risk of infection"

thats not trusting parents. If parents cannot be botheed to immunise their children against potentily life threatening or debilitating illness and disease then i think in itslef this is an advocate for parenting classes - assuming that said parent would have stood back and let "the system" do it through school - rather than the ones who object on the grounds that injections are shit - i do not refer to those.

" And teachers are often the ones to pick up health problems, hearing problems, child abuse etc etc where parents don't. Do you think we should stop doing this too?"

how chronic to stoop to his level. i suggest that parents should be doing certain things instead of schools and suddenly you ask whether schools should not report their concerns to parents or in the case of abuse to the correct authorities? piss poor argument which has absolutley fuck all to do with fuck all.

my argument is simple. not flawed. it does stand up. but you might take a different stance - that is fine but stop being so fucking horrid about it and make a valid case - the " ...ia am grateful that the schools do thse things cos i havent got the time" argument is poor

quite simply the govt impose things through schools that parents should do. the government do this becuase there are a lot of shit parents. shit parents come from all backgrounds. shit parents might not have enough time, money, education or resources.

this will ever be thus becuase there isn't a nationwide emphasis on teaching us as parents the things they try to teach our children - the same children who have the shit parents.who learn by example from their shit parents. whose biggest influence is not the teachers but the shit parents. teadch a child that maccy d's is a shit meal all youwant but if mum buys maccy 'ds the kid will eat it

then when the education system fails them becuase they have shit parents - what is the option for a lot of kids who know that grapefruit is a healthy breakfast but hasn't got a gcse?

knowing something and putting it into practice are completely different. putting it into practice as a parent - different still.

a parent has the ultimate influence and it is US as parents who should teach our children these things and let education teach children qualifications whith which they have hope for the future either a trade, employment, or further education.

whilst we as GOOD parents support the schools teaching becuase we have a culture in society that teaches how to.

that was me custy

Ok, you have no good arguments so you resort to swearing and nastiness. Fine.

The Govt DOES fund parenting classes and not just for the poor. I already provided a link. I gave Sure Start as just one example. I also mentioned the parenting education which goes on through Health Visitors, ante-natal classes, PSHE, Parentline etc etc which is available to all (and this is not true of other countries).

I am not only talking about poor people. In fact I don't think I've mentioned anything to do with poor parenting being connected to poverty.

My point about school photos was not mockery. You can't say that you object to the time lost by having vaccinations in school (ignoring the fact that your kids would miss much more time most likely and their education be much more disrupted if every kid had to be taken out of school and carted individually to the GP's surgery who would probably cave in under the pressure) but not to school photos.

Lots of what schools do is not exclusive to the academic.

As far as your points about the Govt not trusting parents go they're just stupid. You're somehow arguing that if the Govt stopped giving vaccinations and eye tests and PSHE etc etc through schools and put on a few parenting classes then all parents would see to it that these thigns get done??? Laughable.

If you personally are a perfect parent who is perfectly equipped to spot health concerns and take your kid around to get them vaccinated and want to spend your time doing this then that's great but why should other parents and more importantly their kids (especially the ones in care) suffer because of this?

You also repeatedly ignore my points about the schools role in forming a sense of their own community and stressing the importance of the wider community to kids.

I'm an English teacher and have from birht stressed the importance and pleasure of reading to my kids. It doesn't mean I think my kids shouldn't be taught to read or allowed to read in school. Likewise with swimming. Just because I take my kids swimming out of school doesn't mean I'm not delighted that they're going swimming in school. And I'm not big headed or stupid enough to think that my kids don't need other people to reinforce the messages that I give my kids or indeed challenge them. So I'm very happy that after I've taught my kids about sex they will have opportunites to discuss this with their peers and teachers at school. I'm not paranoid enough to think that the teachers are stepping on my toes or taking over my role. And I really think that this IS paranoia.I'm confident enough in my own parenting to think it can take both a bit of challenge and a bit of support. But I'm also very well aware that not every parent is able to be as educated or as hands on or knowledgeable or confident as I am.

Like others on other threads I have taught students whose parents cannot even be relied on to clothe, clean and feed their children well enough. They and their kids rely on schools for a sense of normality and routine and also for the BCGs and the eye checks and often the extra care and attention they don't get at home.

And the Govt IS educating parents in the things that it is educating children in (healthy eating etc). Have you not noticed the massive campaigns in every newspaper and on every billboard on salt and fat for example? And there's loads of adverts for Parentline and parenting classes etc.

'what i thnk you fail to understand is this - where does this stop? why the mass medication through schools? -
Absolute paranoia. I'm quite sure that no more time is given over to vaccinations, PSHE or things of this nature than it ever was (certainly no more than when I was at school 20 years ago). Yet somehow students still manage to sit and pass at ever increasing rates 7-10 GCSEs. So I really don't think we need to worry that vaccinations, cooking and PSHE is taking over the timetable just yet.

'i can find thetime to take my children to the doctors when they were babies and they neeed shots why does the schools system take over this parenting role?'

Well, as I've said, I've been putting off taking my dc2 for her MMR booster because actually (shoot me) I CAN'T find the time. The tiem to do this would mean me taking time off work (teaching other people's kids) and taking my dc out of nursery. Yes, I will find time but it's hard and I consider myself to be a good and responsible parents which not all parents are sadly.

Why is vaccinating kids at school 'taking over' the parenting role? It's quicker, more efficient, cheaper and much less burdensome for the NHS, less time consuming and less disuptive to kid education.

But if you and people like you want to arrange to take your kids out of this and go and get it done individually then under the current system you can.