Education/government/nursery rant

[Nattie]

I've got to get this off my chest 'cos I'm completely gob smacked.

Did anybody hear the results of a report broadcast yesterday that children who have been in nursery/pre-school education since they were 2 years old do better at maths and english and obey rules better than those who have stayed at home - supposedly with their inadequate parents - therefore, don't worry it's alright you should all be doing it.

I am a conspiracy theorist and so many of the government's 'childcare' policies are aimed at getting parents back to work and paying taxes that this announcement has really enraged me. Nothing was said about the emotional development of the child and how they do at any other (god forbid, creative or initiative using) subjects. Surely they do better at the core subjects and behave rules better because they're institutionalised?

I am not having a go at parents who do send their children to nursery and pre-school but I do suspect the motives behind the results of this research.

You missed the other recent research which proved that children who were in nursery would be more violent and mad than children who stayed at home? (I forget the details - but discussed with equal fury on MN at the time)

Put the newspaper in the re-cycling box, make a cup of coffee and do what all us parents do best - follow our instincts and good judgement about what works in our families!

P.S Nat, as the parent of a child wgo is about to go to nursery, I agree with you completely about the results being due to 'training' rather than 'ability' - and question whether obeying rules is necesssarily a good thing at this age!

Agree with Blu - there's always some new controversial theory about something or other and they usually all end up contradicting each other. Trust your instincts - noone knows your children like you do. The idea that "one size fits all" is madness anyway and makes me . Children are individuals with different needs and will react differently to different situations. Ooh now I'm ranting - must go and make tea and calm down .

Hadn't heard the research but it does not surprise me - the Government are trying to create little Literacy adn Numeracy machines at the moment.....no, sorry - little statistic machines, to prove that the Government are doing really well, whereas in fact, whoever said that being an ace reader and good at sums made you a valuable member of society? it's almostlaughable that the this research was presumably made to prove what a good thing it therefore was to send your kids to pre-school, whereas I think it really indicates just what the Government prioritise and how pants it all it. I was an infant teacher until handing in my resignation just last week after having taken maternity leave for dd born 30 June - and this is just one of the many reasons why I am glad not to be going to back to work.

The 'cup of coffee' is a good idea.

I have used my instincts as I've taken ds and dd out of state education and they're now at a Steiner school - I'm working there as administrator to pay the fees! My children are unrecognisable and much less stressed.

The trouble is research like this just makes me mad and I worry about everybody else's children - that way madness lies...... The other thing that made me so cross was that Margaret Hodge put her two-penneth in practically saying, 'look, told you, we are doing the right thing.'

Blu, the scientist resoponsible for the research that you talk about said that their results were totaly misrepresented by the press and the benefits of nursery education quite outweighed the very very slight negatives. So, sorry, you are quite wrong in what you say.

Okay, now I am pro working mum, pre nursery education all the way. But these periodic government study announcements ar laughable. Like all nurseries and all children can be summed up into this pathetically simplified statement. Did they go to your nursery, your home, what is the criteria of this study> Who performed the study? Who paid for the study? Asquith Court?

It's just plain dumb to make such a broad statement about all children. Typical government. Perhaps they should spend more time doing their real jobs and less time pretending they are qualified to give parental advice?

Sorry for my rant, but I just hate when the government makes these daft announcement that one single solution fits the entire population. Bloody stupid!

Here here Uwila

Hmb, Blu was taking the piss out of research, not backing it up.

Part of the probelm is not with the research as such but what is done with it. Governments mislead by cherry picking 'factoids' and the press and other media do just the same.

hmb: Aloha's right - but I think your point does actually support the point I was (almost) making: that whatever the details of these surveys and research projects, they are usually mis-represented in the press in some way - and unless we all have access (and time and extreme concentration) to the scientific source itself, we should follow our common sense and not get worried by the latest minute difference (in either violence or reading ability) attributed to nursery attendance in the Daily Anything!

Perhaps I should have said 'taking the piss out of research and how it is presented in the media ' " !

x-posted - yes, much more succinct, hmb!

Just to add that I do get really really annoyed when people disregard research just because they don't like what it says.

Good, academic research usually has a solid basis, in that the samples chosen will be carefully given and if they are making predictors about the effects of something, then they will usually have a darned large sample size to try and show that.

The problem is usually not with the research (unless its dodgy) but that people don't understand it, or worse, they don't like what it is saying and so disregard it without ever properly considering it. Yes, research is often misused and misquoted by the media and society as a whole beacuse people do not understand what it is or is trying to do, but that is not the fault of the research - only how we use it!

Rarrie, I don't think anyone is dissing the actual research, just the way that it is misreported and oversimplified in the media.

Also, it can be misrepresented earlier than that, or commissioned for political reasons. And research that goes against what the body commissioning it wants to hear can be suppressed. It's a bit of a minefield. In this case, it can be annoying if you feel that the research is a blunt instrument - ie it doesn't reflect your particular circs but is presented as if the results are universal. Eg nursery is wonderful for some kids, but not all - and some home environments are totally unstimulating and some are extremely stimulating....the research may be well done or not, and on the whole I do agree with you Rarrie, as it happens, but a general conclusion can never be applicable to every case, and stuff to do with what is best for your child brings out the hypersensitive mother in us all.

btw I agree with your comment about being institutionalised nattie. As if that's a good thing!

I wouldn't mind have teenagers who are able to follow some simple rules like, 'Don't shout obcene comments at each other in class', 'Don't threaten to throw acid over each other', 'Go to the toilet during lunch time'. There are large numbers of teenagers who have no interest in following any sort of rules at all. Getting them to be have a little would be fine by me. And it would save them from being thrown out of their first job when they tell the boss to fuck off.

But part of being a teenager is flouting rules and challenging authority. I wouldn't want to have to deal with teenagers as a teacher, that's why I don't do that for a living, but I certainly wouldn't want to see a generation of teenage automatons obeying rules without question either.

or should that be "automata"?

I don't want automatons either, but they don't have to behave like total idiots either. Some of them have no resect for anyone or anything, including themselves. And that just isn't healthy.

I'm just a bit jaded this weak with all the shit I have had to deal with.

I don't give a toss how much they want to rebell, I simply don't think that they have a right to treat me, or anyone else like shit

Also Margaret Hodge seemed to think that this proves that sending babies to nurseries is a good thing whereas the research, I believe, stated "from age 2".

I tend to agree with the researchers conclusions that it does help with early linguistic/numerical development in cases where the child's home environment is not particularly stimulating in that respect; but also think that it is not ideal to send a pre-school age child to a nursery full-time - in the nursery setting they do seem to get institutionalised in a way.

Also loads depends on the particular nursery/pre-school - ones that only do "learning through play" don't make such a difference as ones which devote a small amount of time to letters/numbers. Whether you think it is a good idea or not to teach children letters/numbers at this age is your choice (personally I think it is) but at least we have some (good?) research to assist us in making our choice.

No they don't, you are absolutely right hmb. Unfortunately a lot of teenagers do behave this way (including my dd a lot of the time, although not towards teachers). I couldn't teach for a living, I really couldn't.

Agree with you 100% hmb - that's why I left teaching and don't intend going back.

To be fair most of the kids I teach are great, but just at the moment I have a hard core who seem to have gone bonkers. They need 'pulling in', which I can do, but it is very hard work.

I have one little charmer who is failing to go to any form of detention arranged for her. She will get an after school next week and I am fairly sure that she is banking on her mother not letting her go to one. So instead she will get a three day exclusion.

To be honest some of the parents are worse than the kids, no support and no interest in getting the kids to behave in a reasonable way. In fact, some of them delight in their kids bad behaviour.