Grammar schools - how do you know if it's right for your child

[Jinglesthecat]

Hi all.

First time poster.

My daughter is about to go into year 4.

She's doing really well at school.

Her last set of assessments in year 3 (her state school tests 3 x a year)
reading, writing, spag, and maths - mastered.
Science - secure.

Her scaled assessments - reading and spag - 118, maths 115.

The maximum score is 120.

Does that mean she is likely to get into a grammar school given that is how she is doing in year 3, especially in the context of covid disruption over the last two years etc.

The other issue is our local grammar is Tiffins, which I understand is one of the hardest to get into in the country.

I don't have anyone to really ask in real life - so any advice or help for a novice?

Thanks in advance

Not necessarily.
We had 13 children achieve greater depth in KS2 sats last year. Only 5 of those passed the 11+.

My son gets GD in assessments. I don't feel like he is grammar school material, as he is not particularly academic or motivated in his learning.

Thank you - she does seem to be academic and motivated in her learning - her teacher commented about her dedication to learning but I know grammars are very very competitive.

OP have a look at the Elevenplus website - there will be a forum for your local area and you can ask questions there, understand the type of test she is going to have to do. I think children who are working at GD rather than expected / secure are better placed for GS, but there is no firm rule at all.

Just pm’d you.

My daughter did really well in SATs both in year 2 and year 6. She did all correct in KS1year 2 (we didnt get the exact score but her teacher said she had top grade) in year 6 KS2 she scored 119 in english, 117 in reading and 119 in maths and she couldn’t pass all 11+.

I think grammar school probably is a potential, but obviously is not certain for anyone. Tiffins does now have a priority area which, assuming you are in it, makes it slightly easier to get in.

My experience with the Sutton grammar schools was that many primary schools will send 2-3 from a class. This is obviously a hugely rough estimate, as some classes will be way more academic than others, and it depends on the day. But as a guide, if she is consistently 'top table' and managing fine, that is a good sign.

Realistically she will need at least some prep to pass the test, whether that is a tutor and you working with her at home to become familiar with the tests.

Your DD sounds like my DS but we don’t have grammar schools here (SW) and my choices are let him stay at mainstream school (inadequate by ofsted) or pay for private.

😭 I’m disabled and the thought of working FT for private school fees is emotional and challenging for me. But he needs a good school. He’s so unhappy

we could move away but that’s huge!

(the schooling here is often inadequate and oversubscribed so I can’t just move him. E.g he doesn’t have regular PE or Music lessons because his class is so disruptive)

Honestly, it’s impossible to judge when you’re at a state school, in my opinion Why the state school caveat? It's impossible to know regardless of whether your child is in the state or private sector. You, as a parent (with input from teachers/ tutors) you might predict a certain result but it's always uncertain. Not sure why that would be any different in the private sector.

I guess is the comment about state schools because you get less feedback than private schools, perhaps?

@Letussee CAT scores etc dont necessarily indicate a pass rate, nor does knowing where you child sits compared to others (surely even if you were given that information it would only be where your child sits in that particular class etc, a teacher can't possibly know how your child would compare to the cohort taking the exams?). Having said that, my experience in the state sector (in a grammar school area) is very different. We were told in Year 2 that DC1 was very clearly "grammar school material" and similarly later that DC2 was "borderline". Certainly by Year 5 (exams taken in Yr6 here) children were routinely tested and we were given a guide "In our experience, children who achieve more than X in this test are likely to pass .... your child achieved Y" and we were given feedback (need to concentrate on a particular area (VR, Maths, NVR etc / speed up etc). I understand your frustration if you weren't given that but it's not the same across all schools. I know too from friends with children in the private sector that it's not a consistent approach either - it really does depend on the school.

Even with our school's input, its only indicative - there are always children who do better / not quite as well as expected in the real tests.

@Africa2go out of interest are you in a county with lots of grammars, like Kent or Buckinghamshire? I wonder if it is more of an established route there than with the superselectives like Tiffin, so primary schools are a bit more involved? I might be wrong though.

My daughter failed second stage Sutton 11+ and got into a school that take 20% of its intake as 11+.

TBH looking back I think it's been for the best. She likes to know she's doing well and judges herself against others. She would have felt she was dumb if she wasn't keeping up even though the standard would have been higher than a 'normal' school.

She has been predicted all 8-9 for her GCSEs so she's turned out ok and I think has benefited without the pressure.

I think you need to think whether she has the right personality not just if she is bright enough.

@BendingSpoons not a grammar county, a grammar LEA, but yes, the primary school (literally 2 mins from one GS) is aware that the majority of parents will be looking for children to progress to the local GSs.

I agree with others that there isn't a direct correlation between school assessments and the 11 plus, but at this stage it sounds like your daughter is doing really well and has a great attitude, so it's certainly worth finding out a bit more about Tiffin and other local grammars, and think about how you might start to prepare her for the 11 plus in a couple of years' time.

At this stage, the main thing to do is to encourage your daughter to read widely, discuss the texts, explore the meaning of unfamiliar vocab, enjoy the rich descriptions etc. Excellent comprehension and vocabulary will help, whatever test she takes. With maths, she'll need to be fluent in her times tables if she isn't already. You can probably wait until the start of year 5 to introduce her to practice tests and any specific preparation.

You need to find out a bit more about the Tiffin test (and any other tests that she might take for other grammars). In our area (West Midlands) the tests are computer marked, so there is no written element, though the timings are very tight. For these, it was straightforward to prepare our daughter at home with some workbooks, followed by some timed tests at home and an in-person mock. I think the Tiffin test has a written element, so you might need to engage a tutor to help your daughter to learn what they are looking for.

As another poster said, the 11 Plus Exams forum is a great source of information, and the Surrey (Sutton) local board is probably the place to start:

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewforum.php?f=30

It also depends on your child's personality and how they handle pressure. My DS took a grammar exam and didn't get in, but I think that's been for the best for him. He is in the top sets for everything at our local school and that's done wonders for his confidence. A boy who would have been in his year at that school committed suicide last term because of the academic pressure and I can't help but think that might have been my DS - he doesn't thrive under pressure.

@BendingSpoons
I am in a full grammar county and I can assure you that most DC have a fairly good idea by y5/6 who is likely to be going to the grammars. Parents have a decent idea too. The schools say absolutely nothing. They don’t coach and they don’t offer views to parents. They facilitate sitting the tests and DC do a practice paper and parents are given results. Having a primary near a grammar is of no consequence whatsoever. There’s no connection between any primary and the grammars. None. Nor between private schools and the grammars.

I do think accurate teacher assessment tells you a lot. In this grammar county scoring above 115 in sats really would see DC in the grammars because they are not super selective and teacher assessments should be accurate!!! There are always DC who mess up the timing of the exams and other DC pass who were not really expected to. There are appeals and schools will support DC who should go to the grammars but had issues with test technique. They should consider DC who score up to 5 marks below the pass mark depending upon circumstances. However being in top set at a secondary is often seen as a trade off here. There’s often little difference between exam outcomes in the borderline DC.

DD got into Tiffin Girls. She was doing well at everything, much like your daughter, found pretty much everything at school very easy, and was at a v ordinary primary with a fairly high percentage of additional needs and EFL so wasn't really being stretched that much within lessons (not a criticism, I was mostly happy that she was in an unpressured environment). She had a little bit of tutoring but it was mainly for exam technique. I think two other girls and one boy sat for Tiffin from her year at primary. Neither of the other girls made it past the first round and the boy made it to the second round but was placed on the waiting list when results came out.

I would say if your daughter is the type of person who really enjoys harder academic work and is prepared to do a bit of prep there is no harm in giving it a go. We did point out to DD that it was very difficult to get in, so absolutely no reflection on her if she did not get in and we tried to make it all as low stakes as we possibly could. We are very fortunate to live in a place with good state comprehensives and I am sure DD would have done well at them too. Also, think about what would suit her as a person. For DD she is very happy now at a school where she is no longer an outlier and best at things but children with a different personality (and this is absolutely not a comment on ability) may thrive on being top of the class.

I don't think there is a need for tutoring on the academic side of things if your daughter is doing well and succeeding academically. I do think that a bit of practice at working timed questions, pacing herself on an exam, how to leave time for longer questions and checking etc is well worth it. She doesn't need to know more than the syllabus she will have covered at her primary school. She does need to work fast and be able to cope with a pressured exam in a big hall with hundreds of other children sitting in silence. Taking a multiple choice exam (the first round is multiple choice) is a skill you can learn. It's not that easy for a child of that age and making her feel confident in how to take an exam well will pay off. I think DD did not finish the maths paper but still got in. She did find the exam process a bit hard and found sitting in the big hall a bit anxiety-inducing. But she really wanted to give it a go and that helped - does your daughter like the idea?

I would also say, if appropriate, that it is worth looking at bursaries to independent schools if you feel like she would be happier in a more fast-paced environment. Many of the schools round here will give out bursaries up to a maximum total parental income of around £100,000 on a sliding scale. So if you are on a more normal sort of income a bursary is a definite possibility. Look at the bigger name schools if your child is really bright. Places like Latymer Upper and SPGS are really keen to have applications from clever children from less wealthy backgrounds who might need a bursary to apply.

Please PM me if you have questions that you think I might be able to help with.

Thank you That's all really helpful.

Bonjourcrisette - I will pm you if that's ok! It's great to have a tiffins parents who has a good feel for it.

My daughter does seem to enjoy the timed quizzes they do at school - like cahoots. I also understand other kids got stressed during teh 3 x year assessments her school does, despite trying to keep it low key.

She didn't even mention it to me and didn't seem to be bothered.

I wonder though at what it feels like to potentially find everything easy at state primary and always doing well, to suddenly feeling average or less in a grammar school class.

I went to Tiffin Girls' School and I'd say that if your DD enjoys learning, learns fairly quickly and well, does homework easily and finds stuff like that interesting, it could be a perfect match.

I went from a state primary with no tutoring. I was so intimidated in my first week worrying I'd be the school idiot, I got myself really anxious; I sort of panicked so much they had to get an older girl and a friend from my class to sit with me in the break and calm me down!

I soon settled in though and was totally fine. I did come bottom of the class in a subject one exam session, but then top in two others. Generally over the years I was usually in the top 3rd of the class / year, which was very comfortable and I never felt stressed about anything after the first intial week or so.

Getting good exam results, being interested in academic subjects, having intellectual hobbies and being conscientious is all respected and admired at that school. That suited me well. I was much, much happier at Tiffins than I'd been at my primary school.

I remember there was a girl who was usually bottom of everything in the exams. She was viewed as nice but dim. There was never any bullying at Tiffins that I remember, towards her or anyone else, but looking back the pity she received can't have done her any favours. I don't remember any other girl struggling academically, at least not in my class.

OP, if your daughter passes the 11+ I would certainly imagine it's the right match for her. So many girls are tutored massively and for years; they'd be the ones I'd be more concerned about.

Hire an 11+ tutor for a few sessions and ask what they think?

If she’s bright and works hard then she aounds perfect for a grammar (and like she might not fit into a non-grammar if you’re in a grammar area.)

Something to watch out for is the 11+ exam includes content that private schools teach before the exam but state schools do not. So do practice papers with her if you can’t afford a tutor.