Super-selective or standard grammar

[WhatWouldGinDo]

My DC is top of the waiting list for a super-selective grammar. They have a guaranteed place at a well regarded "normal" grammar. They achieved this with no coaching and from a so-so state primary. I'm confident that they'll be fine academically at the super-selective, but would be one of the pack, whereas at the normal grammar, I think they'd be towards the top end.

They have had some anxiety issues, and struggle when they can't do things perfectly. I can see two sides to the arguments for which school is best:

• going to the normal school will allow them to be top of the class in most subjects, which will help them feel good about themselves and reduce anxiety BUT they'll never learn to fail or see that being the brightest isn't always necessary to enjoy life.


• Going to a super-selective will allow them to see that being clever is normal, and that while you may be top of the class in English, you could be bottom in Maths and that's ok BUT the pressure of a super-selective may exacerbate their anxiety.

If a place comes up at the super-selective, would you send them?

My four children at at grammar schools - I don't know if you are local to me (am in West Kent) but we turned down the 'superselectives' for two of our children because they wouldn't have suited their personalities, and seemed to be predominantly all about the academics. The grammar that all of my boys are at tries to educate the whole child and although they have high academic standards, that is not the be all and end all. Having witnessed SO many of my friends' children (and one of mine) struggle with anxiety and stress at school, the MOST important thing is that they are happy - otherwise they won't learn and thrive.

My youngest is clever but not nearly as academically focussed as his elder brother, but he LOVES school and is doing well, trying loads of new clubs and sports and for me, that is far more important.

Are there open days coming up so you can go and visit them both again and decide after you've done that? Presumably your DC will be doing an induction day for the new school soon? What does your child think?

I think it depends entirely on the schools. Are you able to visit again, maybe chat to someone on the pastoral side? Personally, I think there’s a lot of value in being one of the pack, and learning that’s ok and you’re not always the best. But you would need to prepare him for that, before he goes, and be really clear about how that’s absolutely fine and expected.

I absolutely agree @Panicmode1 - their happiness is the only thing that matters. I'm trying to work out which school they will be happier at. How do you assess what the pastoral care is really like? I mean, all schools say that they look after the whole child, and care about them, but how do you know if it's true? And even if they do, how can you tell if the support systems they have in place will actually work?

I'm trying very hard not to be overly-influenced by my own experiences (very bright kid at a distinctly average non-selective) which were not at all good, and have left me with life-long problems.

Do you know parents with children at either school? Is there a FB page for the town where you could ask people to message you privately with views? Perhaps they have been me tinned on here?

My DDs school has abysmal pastoral care, despite claiming the contrary. There are high levels of self harm and low level bullying but whenever I have contacted the school, they are dismissive, despite raving about their care at open days etc. Parents are seen as an inconvenience and a nuisance - once you are in! (Speak to parents and you get a better view....)

My boys' school has the most wonderful school community, parents are very much invited to help out or get stuck in with umpiring or running clubs if they can, and the school are open and have a very good pastoral team...they are chalk and cheese.

Been mentioned...not tinned 🤣

How are the journeys and other logistics?

We were in the similar situation we went for the less academic school. This is because I want my children enjoy the life. In super selective schools kids are all in competition. I was also in very selective secondary school, ı have done my MA in distinction , done my PHD but when I was in secondary I never felt like I was clever or bright student because When I had A grade GCSE’s most of my classmates had A*. I always felt bad. My friend was in state secondary she even had B- or C’s grades but she was so happy. My older daughter is head girl now in her school. She is so confident, so happy and she is feeling so special. İf she was in super selective school maybe she was not going to be the head girl, who knows… But I believe being a big fish in small pond makes them more confident.

I had the same choice for my daughter (West Kent). She did well enough for the super selective and my gut feeling was that it wasn't right for her, and would be too pressurised so we went for the "normal" grammar. It was quite an easy decision to make as she wasn't keen on the super selective. It's hard to say but I think it was the right decision. She certainly doesn't find the pace too slow.

I don't know if you can assume that she would be towards the top of the pack at the "normal" and one of the pack at the super selective, as the 11+ is all a bit of a lottery, and some children with relatively low scores go on to achieve very highly whereas the top scorers may have been coached since Year 3 (not the case with your daughter, I realise). Something else to bear in mind is that not all the high scorers necessarily go for the super selective. Most of my daughter's friends at her school could have gone for the super selective but chose not to, so the spread is probably more equal than you might think.

It really depends on the schools and their ethos. We have a super selective grammar that is actually less academically pressured than the other grammar school.

Some children thrive being given high expectations and targets, others find it utterly demoralising.

Presumably you put the super-selective grammar as first choice originally, so my question is what has changed in the past few months that is making you doubt that preference now?

Judging from your own school experience, and the fact that your DC is probably going to be offered a waiting list place at the super-selective grammar despite having had no tutoring, it sounds as though your DC will be fine, academically, at the super-selective school.

However, given your DC’s anxiety issues, the key question is which school will support them best? It’s not necessarily the case that the school with the higher entry point academically will inevitably have the more competitive and pressured culture. I don’t think speaking to the pastoral lead or head of year at each school will help, as they may well tell you what you want to hear! What you really need is the views of some parents of children currently at each school. Can you get networking, and have some conversations with other parents?

It very much depends on personality. DD has thrived on being one of the pack and much prefers it to being an outlier which is what she had always been before secondary school. I also think it's been really beneficial in that she has really learnt the value of hard work because the pace is very fast and even a clever child needs to apply themselves to keep up.

She is also anxious and the school has been really helpful with this. In fact, the type of overthinking that she is prone to is relatively common within her current peer group and I think she's also found that a help in that she can see that other people struggle with similar issues rather than just feeling a bit weird.

Thank you all for your help. To be honest, the super-selective wasn't on our radar as I didn't fully appreciate how bright she was. It's also a lot less convenient location wise. But I do wonder if, like BonjourCrisette's DD, she would do better in a pack rather than as an outlier.

The problem now is that she's done the induction and all the open days at the normal grammar, and has only had a very brief experience at the super-selective, so if the place is offered, it'll be a real shot in the dark.

Hmm. The fact that the super-selective is much less convenient location-wise, added to the fact that your anxious DD has been fully inducted at the normal grammar, might sway me towards sticking with the normal grammar.

What would the commute to the super-selective actually look like?

How does your DD feel about the options?

What does your DD think? She's a bright girl who clearly has supportive parents so she will probably do fine at either place.
FWIW DD had the choice of a super-selective grammar and a place at an even more selective independent - or we could have declined both and got a place at the school round the corner which is a normal good comprehensive school which gets average results and progress (and where lots of her peers would have been going). I laid out the pros and cons of each fairly brutally and she chose. It has worked out well and though I think she'd have also enjoyed and done well at the other schools, it's very clear she's in the right place for her. I actually worried quite a lot that she would end up at the bottom of the pack and right at the start of the process I said to her 'you know, it's not going to be like primary. You are not going to be the best at everything and you might not be best at anything at all'. She instantly said 'but I'd LOVE that' and she was right, she does love it. So maybe trust your child's instinct - she's obviously clever and thoughtful so she might well have some good reasons either way for choosing one of them. And they are obviously both decent schools that cater for clever children so it's a low stakes decision, as it was for us.
By the way, the school DD chose was a longer journey and required a lot more of her in terms of growing up fast and taking responsibility for herself. But she really wanted it and though she was very tired for pretty much the whole of the first year, it's worked out well ultimately (now Y10). I think because she was so much invested and involved in the choice she made, she was determined to make it work.

What does she want to do?

It depends where you live. Will they be ostracised by peers for being significantly brighter? Will they have no local friendships if they do not attend the local school? Personally I would choose the achieving school as, if they don't settle it would prob be easier to get them into the standard grammar than vice versa.

Will they be ostracised by peers for being significantly brighter?

She probably won't be 'significantly brighter' than all of her cohort in a 'well regarded "normal" grammar' even if she is towards their top end. Not an 'outlier'. And even if she's often top in some/many of the academic subjects there will doubtless be others who excel in music, debating etc.

If she's at the top of the waiting list for the superselective, rather than having an outright place, then that sounds like she might be below the middle of the cohort there (though it could be just down to lack of coaching of course) - or at least start off feeling that way. Which with her character as described sounds like it could be problematic.

My dd went to a 'normal' grammar, it was great - not too highly pressured but allowed those with all abilities within their range to thrive. Of course in addition to the school itself, kids with particular talents could compete in various external activities too.

Does your DD have a preference, OP?

By the way, the school DD chose was a longer journey and required a lot more of her in terms of growing up fast and taking responsibility for herself. But she really wanted it and though she was very tired for pretty much the whole of the first year, it's worked out well ultimately (now Y10). I think because she was so much invested and involved in the choice she made, she was determined to make it work.

My DDs choice was similar in that regard (her gs was a long bus journey, the other alternatives included a very well regarded 'leafy comp' a few minutes away). She'd always been tardy getting ready for primary school, but in all her time at secondary was out of the house at 7:30 and only ever missed the bus once.

Very unlikely to be an outlier - for a start, lots of people choose a school that's more convenient/suits their child better for another reason even if they could get into a more competitive school.

Plus there is generally a huge crossover of ability of those who just got in to the SS in the bottom quartile and the top quartile of the normal grammar. Given she did no prep at all, she may well sit in the top 10% at the normal grammar rather than around the middle or lower at the SS, but it's unlikely to be an outlier situation as can often happen at primary school. And many DC would much prefer that scenario.

I'm all for going for the most convenient good school where you're happy with academics and pastoral care, unless there is a particular strength at the other school that aligns with the child's - i.e. if they play music to grade 7 standard and they wouldn't get suitable music provision at the closer school.

Unless at the induction day she was totally surrounded by girls with whom she could not see anything in common, the facilities and teachers turned out to be truly awful etc, I would stick with what you have aready got, rather than take a last minute place at an unknown quantity of a school that is more difficult to get to, to boot.

How do you know that your DD would be an outlier academically at the local 'normal' grammar school? Do you personally know all the year 6 girls in all the potential 'feeder' (in the 'customary destination' sense, not 'feeder' according to the Admissions Code) primary schools and indies who took the 11+?

I'd be looking really closely at things like subject choices and extra curricular provision. What's important will depend a lot on your DD's strengths and preferences, which you won't entirely know yet, but some of the differences we found looking at the different schools (including normal grammars, super selectives, non grammars and independents) were as follows. Language choices - this varied hugely, in terms of the languages offered, the number you could take to GCSE and beyond, and the way the carousel was structured. Whether they did Latin/Greek/Classics (a particular interest for one of my kids). Whether they did only double science, or only triple, or both. What curriculum sports they did (eg some had a v strong rugby focus, some had just football no rugby, whether they did tennis or cricket or athletics in the summer etc). How many DC got to participate in regular sports matches. What clubs they offered (try and actually look at a timetable, not just a promotional waffle about how good their clubs are). Whether they're single sex or co-ed, or single sex with mixed sixth form. What the the creative provision is like (eg our favourite grammar was brilliant for music but rubbish for drama, by its own admission). Whether there are 'stretch' opportunities for kids in their strongest subjects (eg maths olympiads, subject-based clubs, school magazines etc).

We were surprised by the variation, not only where you'd expect it (eg secondary modern vs private) but even between the grammars. These are the aspects I'd be looking at, more than purely whether or not the school is a super selective, because these are the things which will make most difference to your daughter's every day school life.

Thank you again for all the comments on here, it's really helped. Just to clarify (if anyone is still following) that I didn't mean to imply that my DD will automatically top of the class in a normal grammar - i was just being too lazy to write "more likely to be able to be towards the top in more subjects".

Its interesting how many people have suggested we let her make the decision - I don't necessarily agree that a 10 year old can make such a big decision, nor do I think it is fair to put that responsibility on her. But we are definitely talking and I'm 100% taking into account her views - thing is, she is torn as well.