Would you pay for private education when there is a very good state alternative?

[alfiesbabe]

I know this is a contentious issue, but am really interested to hear other people's views. Our situation: have just moved DS (Yr 9)from private to local state school. (His choice). He had been on a scholarship as a chorister, and finished in the choir, but money wasn't an issue as DH teaches in the private school so we paid peanuts for fees. DS is really happy and likes the wider range of students. He is in top sets for most subjects and reports back that the work is more challenging and behaviour better than was the case in his previous class. He gets less homework, but to my mind what he does get is more relevant (eg in maths he might get set 5 questions to test that he has understood a teaching point, whereas at the private school he'd be set several pages of the same type of question). Results wise, the private school had 85% 5 A-C passes, the state school had 72%. Bearing in mind the state school has the full ability range, whereas the private school is selective, this smacks to me of better teaching in the state school. It seems like a very small difference considering parents are paying about 12K a year for the private school. A-level results are similar - statistically the private school is a little better, but not by much. The private school offers more in the way of music and sport; but DS has gone as far as he wants with music for the moment and isnt bothered about sport. I'm not looking for validation of our choice - we know we've made the right decision - but I'm left with this feeling of 'What were we actually paying school fees for?' The experience as a chorister was valuable, but I can't get my head round parents who pay the full whack, specially if their child isnt musical or sporty. I'm aware that our local state school is outstanding and we're very lucky in this respect. So.... why WOULD anyone pay for private in this situation?

Marina, I was wondering where you got your information from about the NW Kent grammar schools? We might be moving to the East Sussex/Tun Wells area and are in a bit of a dilemma about schools.
My eldest DC is in Year 1 and a lot of the good state schools are full. At the moment there seems to be a choice between one private prep and one CofE state. From my research there seems to be quite a lot of private girls' secondaries in this area but hardly any boys'schools with the exception of Tonbridge which I wouldn't want and couldn't afford anyway. Maybe this is why the grammars take so many pupils from prep schools? They have no paying alternatives at age 11.

I'd have thought people had staff these days, rather than servants. Aren't you being a little antiquated, Xenia?

UQD - Yes the majority from State schools but given that 93% of the population are state educated it's not terribly impressive. Also, the majority of state educated pupils arrive at Oxbridge from academically selective state schools. The devil's in the detail.

But all this about social class being commensurate with manners and being good with people because you are good with your servants. What year is it? Where are we?

Evelyn, from what I know of that part of Kent you may well be right. I can't think of many independent secondaries in the area either, off-hand.
With NW Kent though I am talking more about Gravesend/Dartford/Wilmington area, nearer the borders with London - but I don't speak from insider info IYSWIM - just as a parent who keeps her ear to the ground.
In chatting to Paula I was just saying I was fairly sure that my nearest grammars in Bexley are NOT that overrun with prep-school children because IME (personal)

1. the prep schools in catchment are all quite little, far smaller than the very good state primaries locally

2. even after that, only a handful of children from said prep-schools appear to go on to Bexley grammars - based on our Year Six destination info

So I was just wondering if she meant NW Kent, especially Dartford Boys, which has a stellar reputation as a languages and IB school, and can be reached reasonably easily by train. Of all the grammars round here, that's the one that IMO is currently on the wider radar. Apart from St Olave's over in Bromley which has its own exams and direct entry, and is one of the best state schools in the country.

HTH

extra curricular.
Think that is a good point about the academically selective state schools Swedes.

Swedes - I know that's true, but it does still show how far Oxbridge has come. And the myth about it being private-school dominated does come up an awful lot so i just wanted to point it out.

To be honest, it is not that there is any bias in the system. It's that some schools - state and private - have a tradition of sending pupils to Oxbridge and teachers geared up to know stuff about the exam, the interview, which college to apply for, etc. They also have teachers prepared to give the extra coaching time.

Thanks Marina. I've lined up a couple of tours of the schools next week so I'm building up my knowledge and research. It does make me think that it must be easier for girls to get into grammars in this part of Kent because they still have the option of Kent College Pembury, Sacred Heart, St Leonards etc. There's just nothing for the boys which is quite bizarre!
BTW I've read the earlier part of the thread now and read your comments about Greenwich and Colfe's. I grew up in Bromley but went to Colfe's for my sixth form. It was actually quite socially diverse, and in those days the assisted places scheme still operated which helped as well.

Colfes is still a very nice school evelyn (we know lots of people whose children have been there) but the demise of Assisted Places there as elsewhere has left it less socially diverse, inevitably and soaring demand has encouraged them to up the prices a little
Where we are now boys and girls have a good choice of selective and non-selective state and private options (over the borough border but within catchment), it was the deciding factor in moving into an "unfashionable" part of London
Good luck with your looking around

Marina - I don't know if you are aware but Colfes does have extremely generous scholarships - worth up to 75% of fees. There are also bursaries worth up to 100% of fees although these are means tested so don't help everyone.

I should declare an interest as it's where I send my two secondary school age children - and we chose it in preference to an out of borough grammar so in answer to the original question at the beginning of the thread - for us the answer is yes, we would pay for private education when there is a very good state alternative.

I honestly did not realise that MrsWobble
Am glad to hear they found an alternative to AP
Out of borough for you is a right hack isn't it

out of borough would have been on a direct bus route and lots of the children from our primary school do it. journey was one of the factors we thought about but not the overwhelming one. we're currently beginning to think about dd3 who is only yr 4 but secondary transfer seems to creep up faster than you expect. we're trying to work out if we've got the nerve to only put her in for one school and save ourselves the enormous time taken up in visits/open days/exams etc. we're also trying to work out if we believe the head when he says that tutoring makes no difference - again the saving in time/aggravation would be wonderful but the cautious part of me isn't sure it can take the risk.

Ds also Yr 4 so maybe we will bump into you at some open mornings/days, if you can steel yourselves
I quite cheerfully took two longish bus rides to get to secondary school, looking back on it though
The coach for Dartford (and a right old charabanc it is too) leaves here at 7.30am, ditto the one going off to Newstead Woods
It seems such a long day but I was out the door at that time to get to Catford by 8.45
FWIW I think that is good advice from your head. I do think tutoring, apart from basic tackling the tests know-how, is a misery for the children that is best avoided

a myth that oxbridge is private school dominated UD? Hmm. Don't agree with that. Glad it has been slowly changing over the last 10 years, but very few State schools are geared up to get their students into Oxbridge, it is still an impossible goal for many, and not always due to lack of potential.

But, Scienceteacher, Xenia stated categorically that children at independent schools "learn manners and how to treat everyone with respect." I was giving an example of the behaviour of children at a very very well thought of independent school that casts doubt on this statement.

ruty - I simply mean it in statistical terms. It may always have been the case but there's no arguing that, these days, 56% of Oxbridge students are from state schools.

We can argue the toss about how "representative" this is of the proportion in the country as a whole, but this is an accusation which could just as easily be levelled at other universities.

It is, as you say yourself, an issue about State schools being geared up - having the resources for extra tuition, knowing which colleges to advise people to apply for, etc. The message has obviously been getting through to some extent.

At my school, the girls are beautifully mannered. It's one of the things we really impress upon them, and they are always taken to task if they are even slightly rude or inconsiderate. They quickly learn how to oil the wheels of community.

Since we are being anecdotal, I remember one of my first impressions of going to university... The lads would quite happily let doors swing in the faces of female students. That was a total shock to me as it was something that I had never experienced in our private school huddle. This probably wouldn't faze anyone nowadays, but it was not on 20-odd years ago.

but if 56% oxbridge are from state schools and only 7% of the populous go private..................

.......... then oxbridge take too many students who are coached through the oxbridge entry process. Oxbridge needs to wake up to the fact that we are in the 21st century and that our education system shouldn't be some class-driven structure, but based on a meritocracy where the cleverest and most able people get to the top universities, not just those whose parents paid school fees.

I think Oxford and Cambridge know what they are doing and have a robust admissions process. They are well aware of the background of candidates.

Does Oxbridge coaching take place in independent schools generally? DS1 went to an independent that is well known to Oxbridge admission tutors and there was no such coaching apart from the opportunity to have a mock interview. I would suspect that tutors might be slightly biased towards applicants from well known academic independents because they know that they have been taught rigorously but I sense that many state schools may not encourage their students to apply. BTW there are lots of good universities apart from Oxbridge and a proportion of able candidates don't want to go there anyway.

Gawd no there are some brilliant other universities out there. But the options should be more open, that's all.

Those last two especially are very good points, lilymaid. It may go even further - some state school teachers may have a chip on their shoulder about Oxbridge (either if they went there or if they didn't) based on a 30-year-old idea of what the universities are like, and so don't encourage able students to apply there or may even put them off.

It's certainly true that the proportion of private school students at Oxbridge is greater then the proportion in the "real world". However, the ratio of students is pretty much exactly the same as the ratio of applicants.

i.e. if 44% Oxbridge students were at independent and 56% were from the state sector, that makes sense, because 40-odd percent of applications come from independent schools and 50-odd percent of applications come from state schools. That doesn't imply any bias or social engineering in the admissions process. It just means they are doing a good job of taking the best people across the board.

I know what I'm talking about to an extent, not just as a former Oxford student but as someone who has a close friend involved in the admissions process for a couple of colleges.

Hope that makes sense.

... so therefore if Oxford (for example) were to reflect in its makeup the relative percentage of students who go to private/state (about 7%-93%) it would have to exhibit huge bias in favour of the state system. Currently. Things might change if more state pupils apply.

If a child has to "learn manners and how to treat everyone with respect" from their schooling their parents should be ashamed of themselves.

I don't know if you class catholic schools as private or not, because different people have different ideas about it.
The local school where I live is split into 3 campus',and has a great reputation for the little kids at the jnr campus, but is really bad for the older kids at the snr campus.
So even though the local school has a good reputation our kids started at the catholic school, as its just about impossible to get into at any upper school level.
So in answer to the OP yes I would go private over state.