Can you negotiate fees before starting?

[Rileydelighted]

We need to relocate to Shropshire/Herefordshire and are looking at independent schools for our three children (6, 8, 10). Two boys, one girl. Ideally, we’d like them to be at the same place as day pupils.

Is there room for negotiation? Our kids are academically bright, one definitely scholarship territory, one possibly. Middle one is extremely sporty, so I guess there might be room for talking about scholarships, but I wondered more if there’s just room for arguing for a reduced overall rate?

Schools aren't very keen on doing this, because it would piss off all the other parents, and they can't afford tomdo that.

The value of scholarships (which can be nothing purely honorary) is usually published.

Siblings discounts may be avaiiabke - definiteoymenquire abiut that.

Also, you might find they would consider subsequent DC for a bursary, within their usual distribution of bursaries, counting expenditure on fees for the elder ones as part of the calculation.

Preps generally have a smaller pot of funds available for awards than secondaries, and given where we are in the admissions round, all funds may already have been allocated for the next academic year

Thank you. Do you think there’s room for discussion over scholarships at all? We’re not going to be in line for bursaries I don’t think.

We’d be moving for September 2023 I think. Although could move sooner if we find schools and a place to live.

Scholarships tend to be fished out in one go for the year group, the school I teach at offers them at y7, y9, y10 and L6 only and they are done on one or two days so that the odds are all equal if that makes sense. So I am not sure if a school would offer extra scholarships to new pupils at other times. It might cause friction where other children missed out but might have been better than your children if you see what I mean.

Bursaries are means tested so would be offered at any point, but they go through your accounts with a fine tooth comb and only give them if warranted.

Sibling discount is often offered at 5% or so, not usually enough to make a dent in fees.

With the best will in the world, is private education for your family if you need discounts before you even start?

Endless years of experience would suggest no, at prep level. If you want to try for 13+, there's more chance - but if you're looking for big discounts, a child needs to offer something more than academic (there are lots of clever children, however clever your own child/ren might be), and you need to look at the 'big name' schools, not local ones. This means you probably need to be prepared to countenance boarding. If you have an astronomically clever son (sorry, but these things are still largely only available routinely to boys), there are possibilities which wouldn't necessarily involve bursaries but, again, you'd have to think of boarding.

I totally understand your thinking, though @Rileydelighted. I was dead set on independent schools before I even had children, so had to find ways to make it happen despite not having an income to match!

Do you think there’s room for discussion over scholarships at all? We’re not going to be in line for bursaries I don’t think

Scholarships tend to be limited to senior schools and largely honorary these days, or at most 10% of the (boarding) fee. You can sometimes combine academic and sport or academic and music and get 20% off.

The big discounts come through bursaries but these are means tested and take assets into account.

With three children you should get a sibling discount -5% on the second child, 10% on the third.

Thank you everyone. Just wondering really. We’ll pay what we have to, but I’d been struck by how much variation there was in fees between schools where I couldn’t see much difference in destinations and wondered if you could negotiate a bit.

We didn’t intend to end up in the private sector and were pretty happy with our children’s education in the London state sector, but this unexpected need to relocate has meant a rethink. I can’t see state schools with the same level of aspiration and opportunity where we need to move, so independent it is.

It's worth a try, it depends how oversubscribed they are.

If you're paying, don't discount a different place for the children, often one school doesn't suit all. (my kids are at 3 different schools, one state and 2 private).

I'm in one of the counties you've mentioned, with children at independent schools but also experience of the state system as a parent and as a teacher (in both sectors).

The sibling discounts vary, depending on how much they need to attract pupils - the ones with no problem filling places either don't offer them or only offer about 5%. I would be wary of any particularly small independent schools at the moment, some have struggled to stay open and marketing is going overboard, whilst others are thriving with year groups at or near capacity.

Scholarships are dished out at certain times, you have to try for one along with others, who may be internal or external candidates. 7+, 11+, 13+ and 16+ in general. Often not worth much.

I am in agreement that unfortunately many of the state schools are not very aspirational and, in my opinion it's a downside that many of the secondaries are comprehensives with no sixth form attached. Years of underfunding which isn't getting any better. Rural deprivation doesn't seem to register with central government! When I was a governor I remember comparing the average amount of money per pupil in my county with that of a very smart and leafy part of London where relatives live - their school was getting almost twice as much, (this was about 5 years ago), and had so much more on offer because they could afford it. These were largely children of professional parents, certainly not deprived, and made me cross at the inequality between places like that and rural areas/small towns with their own challenges and deprivation.

Anyway, good luck with your search!

We are in Shropshire / Herefordshire and our experience is these schools are undersubscribed. Scholarships are available at both preps and senior schools. The amount varies from school to school. Both our children have scholarships for prep school. Feel free to pm me.

Thanks @MrPickles73, have sent a pm. I thought the schools seemed undersubscribed. That’s a worry with some of them - what is economically viable for the smaller schools? A few seem to be around 400ish kids for an all through school.

Most schools give sibling discounts.

No probs Rileydelighted I've replied.

It's quite a different market outside the SE and large cities. They are also struggling to fill the state schools and salaries are on average lower so less people can afford private fees. Demographics are more elderly (we get alot of retirees from the SE, Liverpool, B'ham who can they buy mahoosive houses in exchange for a 3 bed semi in the burbs). Although house prices have gone up recently.

And since COVID less international students though there seem to be more families moving up here from the SE and more families moving to private from state due to the quality of lockdown learning.

As for the size of schools there are few around here bigger than 800. And certainly I know 3 all through schools who have less than 200 which I would think is not viable.. All three have been bought by the chinese.

Yes I know someone who managed to get the usual 10% scholarships up to 25% for her three and still had a siblings discount too. If you don't ask you don't know.