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Original poster

Oh God! Upset (sad) and a leetle bit furious about conversation with head this morning

35 replies

dividedselfridgesxmaswindow · 14/12/2007 10:20

Okay, I have three children. My middle child (ds) is always the fly in the ointment. He is a lovely boy, not aggressive or manipulative or unkind or rude. He can be all these things at various times but not inherently so. He has a kind and generous nature and is particularly fantastic on a one to one basis.

The thing with ds is he is silly and acts up. He lacks self discipline and is rather the class clown. He loves silliness and this does NOT fit with school or life in general as he matures and it does cause him (and me, fgs give me strength) problems on occasion.

Now, yesterday was his school play. He was a carol singer and had to wear a hat and gloves and carry a lantern. Seems as though they reneged on the lantern - he would have been picking it apart and fiddling with it no doubt. My mother and I went to watch him in the morning. He was loving every second during the play and was excited about the event when we were getting dressed for school earlier that morning. Sure enough, he was fidgety and kept looking behind him and he was blowing the tinsel on his classmates' costumes every now and again. However, he did exactly as he was supposed to do and sang and joined in with great enthusiasm. I was proud of him and felt that he tried his best to behave. His carol singer co-star kept tickling his hands and was encouraging him to be silly as much he was her but hey-ho

Anyway, this morning the head confronted me with the following.

She said it was carol singing at the elderly person's home on Tuesaday and that ds was not o go because he did not seem at all interested in the school play, and did not appear to have any desire to be part of things with his class mates or to fit in and was unlikely to be able to behave in a confined space.

I was gobsmacked but vehemently disagreed with most of what was said and explained my perceptions of him a the school performance.

She said something about fish oils.

Now, coming away, I'm thinking is exclusion the best policy here.

I'm really cross and feel that this is about as unseupportive as it gets. Does my ds need to be rewarded for bad behaviour by 'getting out' of occasions he struggles to stay focussed on??

Thoughts and opinion greatly appreciated.

My suggestion would be for him to go but to have the promise of a reward such as leading the walkign line back to school if he manages to cooperate with his behaviour.

I'm presuming he hasn't been warned that he will be excluded from this so that he can consider this a future consequence and that this is more a case of 'we don't want wriggly silly kids spoiling the nice school image in the village. I'm prepared to accompany the group if it will help.

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VVVExcitedAboutChristmasQV · 14/12/2007 10:24

Crikey! That's a rather kneejerk reaction?

Has she never brought this to your attention before now? Because it's rather extreme as a first step, I feel.

If his behaviour is such that she wants him excluded from an activity - what plan of action has she suggested you both try and overcome this apparent behaviour problem?

Seems to me like she just doesnt want to be seen to have anything but absolute angels on an outing - all about appearances.....

edam · 14/12/2007 10:24

I think offering to accompany the group is a good idea, if your ds is the kind of kid who won't be even more encouraged to act up by his mother being there.

And then organising an appointment with the head to discusss strategies for improving ds's behaviour. In a calm, constructive manner - on her side! (And yours, obv. but I'm sure her jumping on you out of the blue felt a bit confrontational.)

Hallgerda · 14/12/2007 10:25

I think you're right to be cross. You have made positive suggestions and stood up for your son. I'd be concerned about the school being that concerned about its image, and about the kind of image they want to present.

And I'd have gone ballistic over the fish oil suggestion.

wessexgirl · 14/12/2007 10:28

Yes, argh! at fish oil! Thinks she's an ed psych, does she?

If he'd done something outright disruptive, like shouting or hitting, then yes. But it seems OTT in the circumstances, and a great shame for your ds. When children are penalised for having done nothing much wrong, they often get it into their heads that they might as well go to town and do something to justify their reputation ime.

candypandy · 14/12/2007 10:34

Your idea about a reward of leading school line is a good one. She is concerned about image, not the little old ladies they've seen a lot worse I bet! You are right, stick up for your son as who else will under these circumstances. It seems very unfair to me. Treat kids as if they're going to be naughty and they will be it's a self-fufilling prophecy! That's punishment before he's done anything! He'll feel so left out. I love fish oil capsules for mine but if someone else suggested them in this way I'd give them one as a suppository.

Original poster
dividedselfridgesxmaswindow · 14/12/2007 10:34

Thanks for comment thus far. Two things to add...

She mentioned he was kicking children sitting near him. I did not witness this so cannot confirm, but she and I both know this would be silliness as opposed to kicking to hurt iyswim. Gosh this sounds like 'my son can do no wrong' speak, sorry! Anyway, in the morning performance neither my mother nor me saw this happen.

Secondly, he suggestions are ones I've come up with since. I haven't put them to her yet. I will do so l

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Original poster
dividedselfridgesxmaswindow · 14/12/2007 10:36

lost some type there

Was supposed to read: I will do so later if concensus here is that it is a good idea

my 't' key is sticking too

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rachaelsanta · 14/12/2007 10:44

I agree with wessexgirl, he may well think if he's going to be punished for nothing, he might as well be properly naughty.

tortoiseSHELL · 14/12/2007 10:47

The fishoil comment made me lol - she's been watching too many programmes on Living Health and Panorama! Fish oil is a cure-all don't you know.

Could you ask if you could go to the carol singing as well, and pull him out if he misbehaves?

sb6699 · 14/12/2007 10:53

Excluding a single child from any outing (especially if they have not been forewarned) is just cruel.

Go with the offering to go with them and pull him out IF he misbehaves.

Seems like the school is more interested in appearances than spreading Christmas spirit!!

mrspnut · 14/12/2007 10:59

I would definitely have a word with her because afaik children are not allowed to be excluded from school activities purely on their behaviour.

The 5 outcomes for children and the inclusion policies mean that children should be encouraged wherever possible what ever their behaviour. This is where good risk assessment skills come into play.

I would ask her to tell me how preventing your son from going with his classmates to sing carols tallys with the spirit of inclusion, and how it will help your son to make a positive contribution or enjoy and achieve.

I have a feeling that the LEA would take a dim view of her decision.

Original poster
dividedselfridgesxmaswindow · 14/12/2007 14:50

Ok I spoke again at lunch time with the head. She said it's a health and safety issue and that ds was worse at the evening performance that I didn't witness.

Phoned CSF who said it's up to he school to decide.

Head is asking the class teacher if she is prepared to take him given the heath and safety implications (wtf?)

He does cooperate but in a silly 6 year old boy kind of way.

I said that if he had a physical disability or any other special need they'd have to risk assess and provide according to his needs so why is this any different?

I also said I'd accompany him

Am finding this more and more ridiculous. I may have waffled a bit about pavlovian theory

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ChristmasShinySnowflakes · 14/12/2007 14:59

There is a wider issue here IMO.

What will they do when it comes to school outings and visits to Museums etc? Will they attempt to exclude him from that kind of activity?
No, I suspect not because that would be witholding an educational opportunity from him.

I cannot see why a distinction is being made about Christmas activities in particular so I'd be inclined to further explore this line of thought with her and see how she responds.

Blandmum · 14/12/2007 15:04

Having sen does not mean that a child will be inculded in every activity. You are expected to make arrangments to include wherever possible. However you can excluse children with SEN if safety is an issue.

I have excluded children from specific practicals for this reason.

You are expected to show that you have done what you can to include, but you can exclude.

ChristmasShinySnowflakes · 14/12/2007 15:09

I understand that however I don't think he doesn't have a SEN or even a behaviour management plan.

ChristmasShinySnowflakes · 14/12/2007 15:10

I meant to say I don't think he has a SEN. Sorry head a bit of a mess today.

Blandmum · 14/12/2007 15:14

No, I didn't think that he did but yousaid

'I said that if he had a physical disability or any other special need they'd have to risk assess and provide according to his needs'

And you are right, up to a point, and the school has to do what it can to include. But schools can stop children from taking part in activities if they believe there is a risk to that child, or other children in the class.

So, in the past I have had to exclude children with IEPs from some practicals because it would have been too dangerous for them to take part.

Blandmum · 14/12/2007 15:15

You should know if he is on the schools SEN regester, and theyshould have consulted you over an IEP (Individual Education Plan).

Blandmum · 14/12/2007 15:16

sorry xmas window posted the quote! I'm gettign old and confused

Bridie3 · 14/12/2007 16:03

Sounds like perhaps the head is feeling the Christmas strain.

florenceuk · 14/12/2007 16:37

hijack - can anybody tell me what an IEP means? My DS (Y1) was almost excluded from the nativity play, not so much for his behaviour there (although he was not good) but because he hit a lunchtime supervisor with a piece of sports equipment. At the time I was more sad than mad, having seen him perform beautifully in his local drama class where they are clearly switched on to keeping all the kids engaged and entertained - I suspect the problem was partly that he was a villager cue sitting on the side being expected to sing nicely and not move around for 45min. Anyway, head has said that DS will have an IEP. He was permitted to participate the play but under close supervision (sat next to a teacher) which they seemed happy to do (he was not the only one). DS was a bit sad, and over the last few days has been a bit better but it has been a sobering experience for all of us.

I agree, it seems against the spirit of these kind of joint events to not try to include everyone (after all its Xmas). Esp if you are willing to go with him and keep him in check.

ChristmasShinySnowflakes · 14/12/2007 16:43

Individual Education Plan

You should be consulted on and fully involved in the process, through liasion with class teacher and the INCO/SENCO ( Individual Needs or Special Educatonal Needs Coordinator) at the school.

florenceuk · 14/12/2007 17:05

but I can't help but see this as A Bad Thing - is it?

ChristmasShinySnowflakes · 14/12/2007 17:39

What other observations have been made on him, during normal lessons/clasroom activity?

IMO an IEP is a positive thing if backed up with lots of praise and encouragement as it ensures that the child is being offered a consistent approach from home and school- and that the same goals and aims are being worked towards.

Original poster
dividedselfridgesxmaswindow · 14/12/2007 17:49

I will add more to this thread later. We have had a letter and the school is not revoking this course of action.

Right now I am in tears and very angry about some of what is happening so will post when I've chilled a bit.

Would be very grateful of your continued support later though if poss?

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