catholic families who have chosen to not send their children to a catholic school

[twinsetandpearls]

DD is currently at a catholic primary which apart from class sizes we are generally happy with and I feel our family gets a lot from being part of a catholic community.

We are about to move as we want to take dd out of this town and we are in the process of enrolling dd at St Mary's Hall Stonhyhurst. The results for a selective school are not amazing but I passionatly wanted to keep dd in a catholic school.

But this would mean a 45 minute commute for me every day and a smallish commute for dp. The fees are huge as she progressed but family have offered us help so we are not too worried about that. I am not happy in my present teaching post and have been looking for jobs near Hurst Green so that I would not have the commute and could be closer for dd school activities. The jobs are just not there, especially at a comparable salary to what I am on now.

I have seen however a job at a grammar school in the North which if I got it would offer me comparable pay with less responsibility meaning more time for dd and dp which is a huge issue ATM. Dd however clearly could not go to STonyhurst and it would make sense to send her to the girls equivalent of the school I would like to work for. But it is not a catholic school and that for me is a huge emotional and spiritual sacrifice. But the grammar school is a better school.

I suppose the question is If your faith is important to you what should guide your choice of school faith or academic results.

And, tangentially to this conversation, did you see how over-represented state Catholic primary schools were among the high-performing schools in the league tables last week?

We didn't send our daughter to the Catholic state primary because it was too far away and we wanted her to be with her brother for at least the first years of their education. Just another one of those hard decisions.

Just to disagree, I've gone for faith. Same situation (nearly!) - a very good RC primary school v an 'outstanding' CofE one. Longer commute to the RC one, but they can go on the bus from reception (there's a minder on the bus BTW, so I'm not really that heartless). The other reason we chose the RC one was that the CofE one was just a bit too obsessive about results - 'we'll make this a record year, won't we Year 6', etc, and I thought "WTF! They're 10 year olds!!!!" I think sometimes you pay a high price for academic results.

I certainly don't think Eliza you should move her mid way in secondary, having had 3 children at that level and seeing how important their friends become to them at that age, more than their family in many cases just for that period.

Teenagers can be horrible spotty difficult things many of whom decide to give up on God anyway at least for a time so some rosy ideal that they'll be in a nice Catholic atmosphere doesn't always quite work out as planned so I'd go for the best private school that will help them fulfil all their talents to the full.

When I was going to the parents part of the first communion classes for the twins one lady leading it was saying her Catholic daughter was almost the only girl in her state Catholic school who even went to mass every week.

Well a good Jesuit school would be my ideal.

I agree with some of the points Eliza raised which is what I expected to find when I sent my dd to a Catholic primary. However it was horrible and she hated the school so I have had to move her. Mind you we are overseas so the whole set-up is probably very diff. In total the class attended the church (5 minutes away) 3x during year 1. They said a short prayer at the beginning of the school day. Dd was the only one in the class who even knew the Lord's Prayer. They had religion 1 x week and covered nothing she hadn't already known. I had hoped it would have been an element pervading the whole of the school day and transmitting a certain ethos but it wasn't the case.

Despite my reservations about the academic quality of her present non-faith school, the atmosphere is more friendly, warm, inclusive and the religious instruction is so much better. She has Catholic religion 1 x week and the teacher throws herself into it (class of 5!). I am not 100 percent happy because I did want a Catholic school education for her but you really need good academic results too. Compensating for a weak school at home is very difficult, as is trying to instill values when they are participating in a school environment most of the week where God bascially doesn't count.

realise my post actually doesn't help you at all. Sorry!

It's a difficult one. Ideally, I think I'd stick to the RC school for primary/preparatory years and then go for academic results in secondary education.

That way, all the important stepping stones of Catholicism (such as first Confession, first Holy Communion) have been covered, and your child has been given a firm foundation and grounding for years to come. The rest you can do at home with a certain degree of effort and commitment which you obviously have.

However, the impact on overall family happiness should not be underestimated and only you can judge that one. (Not easy I know but family harmony is as important as one's faith! Or, to put it another way, it's hard to focus on spiritual matters when everything at home is in chaos!)

Many family members of mine have faced or are facing this issue (fortunately not me as I live in mainland Europe where the best schools tend to be Catholic - phew!)

One example: my sister faced this issue with her ds. She opted to send him to an excellent CofE selective prep school and not the local Catholic primary which has poor academic standards. At the age of 11, her ds is now saying he wants to convert to the Cof E. His father is CofE so that could have happened anyway, but my sister (having promised at his baptism, with her dh's consent,to bring him up in the Catholic faith) finds it quite difficult to come to terms with.

Digression alert: it's an emotive issue too because sometimes the Catholic schools appear less "successful" because they are not selective. I was visiting my sister over Christmas last year and came across a rag-taggle band of 10 yr olds in the town square singing carols with their headmaster in the rain. They were scruffy and cold, wearing thin blazers. Two of the children had obvious mental disabilities but were joining in with gusto. Yes, you guessed it, they were from the local Catholic primary school and they were collecting money for charity and doing a good job despite the dodgy harmonies!! Their league table results are appalling of course but their main catchment area is from a very deprived area of town. Anyway, that's another issue ....

From my own experience, I went to a fantastic Catholic prep school but then my mother made what was in this instance the wrong choice in prefering faith over academic standards and sent me to an appalling RC convent school. (It had been good but had sunk to a dreadful state by the time I arrived.) At the age of 42, I'm still dealing with the negative effects of that experience. For that reason, for secondary education I'm afraid I would opt for academic results over faith every time.

Fortunately, neither of the schools you have in mind for your dd are appalling so whatever decision you make, it won't be a bad one. Neither will you be abandoning Catholicism totally if you send her to a non-Catholic school as you will continue to go to mass and follow Catholic traditions at home. However, family harmony allowing, I would go for the faith option up to age 11. Good luck and sorry for the rambling reply (I've got flu and am finding it hard to rally my thoughts in to succinct phrases!)
Hope you find a solution that works well for all of you!

SSSandy, my experience of Catholic state schools in the UK is rather different -- unlike a lot of nominally Catholic private schools, the state schools my dc have attended (two different primary and one secondary to date) are very seriously Catholic, with 30 mins RE a day, consisting of full-on faith instruction. They get taken to Mass in the church on every holy day, and an extra one at the beginning of each term, and have a weekly Mass in the school where one of the priests comes over. At dd1's secondary school they also offer Confession during Advent and Lent. All these schools have only taken baptised Catholics, and generally also require a priest's reference stating that you attend mass regularly.

I think the monastic private schools like Ampleforth and Stonyhurst are very serious in their Catholicism, since people are choosing them because that is their USP. But a lot of the less high-profile private schools seem to have downgraded to Catholicism-lite, because they have had to take large numbers of non-Catholics to survive.

FWIW, for the OP, dd2 is currently at the nursery of a non-Catholic primary school, and I think we will apply for her to stay there from Reception onwards, rather than move to the RC primary her older brother attends. This has been a hard decision, because I value the religious input and the sense of community from the church school, but I think it is the right one for her, because the non-church school is exactly right for her rather tricky personality -- they are gentler, much more creative and much less heavy-handed with the discipline. The academic results would only be a consideration for me if the catholic school had very poor standards, which is not the case for us.

Thanks frogs, yes I see my experiences here are just not comparable. Despite the minimalist religious slant to the old school, I did find it hard to consider moving outside the Catholic school system. However I have found there is little difference between a non-faith school and a faith school here in terms of how big a role the faith aspect plays.

Daily religious instruction and the weekly mass etc sounds excellent to me. I would find it hard to pass that up tbh without absolutely having to. So hard to know what to do for your dc, isn't it?

I was actually thinking (in our case) that we would move her back to a Catholic school for secondary, countingthegrey, thinking that is a time in life when direction is so important and faith can be discussed in more depth. Now I really don't know what to think.

Good luck twinset

Yes, Xenia--you're right about the friends bit. So important at that age.

GRRH. So hard to make these decisions.

I was interested in frogs comments ? our nearest state catholic school (and therefore the one transport is provided to) I found surprisingly light on the Catholicism. They had cut out weekly masses because apparently the parents didn?t like it ? so this did help me make the decision to go for the local non-catholic school. Obviously your decision must depend on the quality of your local catholic and non-catholic schools and the balance will be different in all areas.

I would say that in our parish, because we don?t have a parish school, it is easier for children who go to the local non-catholic schools because all the preparation for first communion, reconciliation etc., and all the social events, are organised through the parish rather than through the school. I would worry more if there was a school attached to the church - that a child might feel semi-detached if the other children were doing their preparation through the school.

SSStollenzeit - FWIW, the Catholic schools in France are a very varied quantity too.

We recently seriously considered moving my partner's sons from their local state school (in Neuilly-sur-Seine, so an affluent catchment area) to a private school, because we felt that the boys weren't able to make many friends at their state school. In Neuilly the only private schools we could consider were Catholic schools, which was a bit complicated since the boys are Jewish, but we had a good look anyway.

After a lot of research we concluded that the Catholic schools were no better than the state schools academically and in fact had far more problems with drugs and delinquency than the state schools because the children had more money and less parental control than in the state schools. Basically busy parents were buying "peace of mind" by sending their children to a Catholic school with all those values etc, but the school was failing to deliver.

Complicated, huh?

Finding the right school is such an almighty head-ache isn't it Anna? Why do you think they are having difficulty making friends at their current school?

Finding it very strange that you'd elect to send your dc to a Catholic school and then object to weekly mass.

On friends - the thing is, in rich/affluent Neuilly a lot of families send their children to private school, leaving the less well off in the state schools. Most of the children in my stepsons' classes are a lot less well off than they are, and don't have the same opportunities/experiences in life. So you get a lot of children who spend their days in front of computer games etc, have never been abroad. When we try to organise holiday activities (camp etc) for the boys, they have a hard time finding friends to go with them because their classmates don't have the money. There are children who don't know how to swim, play tennis etc.

In a private school that wouldn't be an issue. I think the boys are often a bit lonely. Oh well.

I am catholic and my DDs were baptised in our local catholic church, and I had every intention of sending them to the attached school, but I decided against it after viewing it. It certainly had great results academically but it just didn't feel right for my DDs. The local non-church school has much more emphasis on music and sport and is a friendly welcoming place.

I thought they would be happier there and had to put that before academic achievement.
My mother has never forgiven me though, but that's another thread .

There's another issue too, which bothers my partner a lot - in the state schools in Neuilly or the 16th arrondissement the children at the top of the class all tend to be Jewish (because the clever/educated Catholics are at the private Catholic schools, and because Jewish families place so much emphasis on school and academic success). And it creates a very distorted view of the world for the boys.

I suppose the only solution then is finding friends via extra-curricular activities, sports clubs and so on. I agree it isn't ideal though, I do hate having to compensate for what is or is not happening at school all the time.

Twinset, I've just looked at the Stonyhurst website and I think there is a lot that is very good there. Are you so sure that the school academic results are not up to scratch? If so, that is really a worry. Do you know the school well, have you paid a visit?

a bit off the subject twinset, but is that a prep school for Stonyhurst ? just curious as my dad went to Stonyhurst

Most the UK Catholic state school equals poor, poverty, Polish or Irish immigrant, no selection (just like the picture painted of those lovely carol singers) and C of E middle class. Unless you pay.

Also I agree with the comment above - there are some really really bad very small private convent schools at secondary school which you'd be an idiot to choose and are enough to put anyone off religion for life and the academic standards are poor. Eton set up a new Catholic chaplaincy to cream off rich but very very clever Catholics for example (if you like boarding and have a boy) and my children's private secondary schools have loads of resources thrown at various religions from Catholic to Jewish to Muslim societies and clubs. At one point my Catholic daughter went to Jewish assmbly all year because it was in the room next to her classroom and I think that's great.

Sorry if have added to confusion SSStollenzeit!! Not my intention!! Just think perhaps easier when they are older to to discuss issues of faith at home, once they've had basic grounding at school. Also, there are more opportunities for them to be involved in parish (in theory anyway!!!) as they get bigger. But it's swings and roundabouts ...

... agree with Xenia that a school offering good/thorough religious instruction where children are exposed to a variety of faiths is preferable to a narrow-minded Catholic private convent school with poor standards and a limited outlook.

My mother's mother married a non catholic, so did my mother and so did I and my mother's view was that you pick the best school not the Catholic school by default. My sister and I did go to to reasonable private day convent school until we were about 8/10. I suppose those parents who most want to control their children and how they turn out are best educating them at home which is how a number of very strict religious groups do manage things so they are not only away from other religions but also completely cut off from TV and other outside influences.

Eliza you have expressed much better than me why I want dd to have a catholic education and in particular a Stonyhurst education.

SSStollenzeit a good jesuit education is my ideal which is why I chose Stonyhurst as that is exactly what it provides.

Countingthegreyhairs overall family happiness is something that is very important to me and to dp . We cannot grow spiritually as a family if we are doing a long commute or having to work all the long hours to pay for the very very expensive fees at Stonyhurst plus the higher mortgage. If I could get a job near Stonyhurst I would send her there without a second thought but at the moment that job is not there and there will be an element of commuting for some if not all of the family if dd goes to SH. If and it is an If I got a job in Manchester our lives would be easier if dd went to school in Manchester, as dp would also be able to get a job in Manchester and we would all be living, working and studying in the same town and we could buy a cheaper house and in the future lower school fees so less stress all round.

You are right to point out that that neither school will be a bad one, in fact dd is very lucky and I have not lost sight of that and I hope that as dd grows she will realise that to. Which brings me back to another thing I liked about Stonyhurst they acknowledged that children who went their were lucky and priviledged and this was not something to feel guilty about but they must remember that not all children have such advantages and that the gift of an exclusive education must be put to good use. That is exactly how I see my dd education.

Frogs Stonyhurst is not as in your face religious as I thought it would be there are not compulsory daily masses and we have not been asked for a reference from a priest, although i think it is very clear when you meet us that I am a very devoted RC. So perhaps I passed the faith test at first glance But they do not pay lip service to the faith either, I think they have the balance right.

Having taught in Catholic state schools SSStollenzeit I can confirm that parents do complain about everything from a weekly mass to the teaching of RE.

SSStollenzeit I know Stonyhurst quite well, through my church , I have a friend who sends her children there and we have visited the school - not to mention hours of research. There is a lot that is very good at the school, I am happy with the academic standards but they are not outstanding for a private school. As Marina said you would not have to travel far to find another school with better academic results, even perhaps a state one, although our local catholic state school could not compare in terms of results or spirituality. But I am not looking for a school with outstanding academic results I want dd to have a broad enjoyable special education.

Choosing a school other than SH is to do with convenience I suppose and the better academic standards are a tag on.

MerryAnnSinglemas yes St Mary's Hall is a prep for Stonyhurst.

MerryAnn - I am really thinking that I might know you now!!

we have a similar problem in that my DSs go to the local Catholic state primary. OFSTED have just declared it "outstanding" but the secondary provision for the Catholic community is this city is great, if you are a girl but the boys' school is dire and the DSs would have to go on 2 buses to get there.

I agree with the others who have said that you have to go with your instincts and remember that even if they do not attend a Catholic school, they will still be receiving their Catholic input from you and your parish

Hi,

I am a Catholic mum married to a non-Catholic Dad. We have 2 gorgeous kids, aged 12 and 10, both of whom went to our local Catholic primary school - which as it happens has just come 3rd in the Yorkshire primary schools league table. For me, the chance for my kids to attend a Catholic school was very important because I felt I needed some support in nurturing their faith. I hope u make the decision that feels best for you and your kids. Incidentally, I am from Lancashire originally and Stonyhurst always had a great reputation when I was younger. Pray for guidance. Good luck!