So, Keir Starmer is intending to remove charitable status

[BadgerB]

He intends to use the money raised to "shake-up" the State schools.

Has he thought this through - the number of children whose parents just about manage fees, who will then transfer their kids to state schools.

How many? How much will this cost? And how soon can the necessary expansion be effected?

Of course, the really rich will be able to dig deeper into their pockets

I expect it will be popular with voters. I don’t think it will make any difference to state schools as there are relatively few private schools that have charitable status. It will probably encourage some private schools to switch over to profit making and drop their bursary provision. Some children will move back into the state sector and be paid for by the tax payer. In principle it sounds like a nice idea but in reality it will probably cost as much as the taxes it raises.

It seems on MN its ok to get your child tutored to get into a grammar school but if you pay private fees you are some kind of devil's spawn and deserve whatever is coming your way...
I work full-time and my husband is retired disabled (accident at work). Our children went to the state primary but it was not able to meet their needs. The nearest grammar school is 1.5 hrs drive away and there is no public transport. They are very happy at their private school and doing well. I pay about 40k per year fees (our highest outgoing by any means). I also pay tax and NI. Now people would like to add some 8k to the bill? At what stage should I say I'm throwing in the towel, not work, not pay income tax and send them to the local school..? How will that improve state school education?

@MarshaBradyo their main swing was brexit. But that is done now so what next to keep them?

My children go to a smallish indy that's part of an chain of academies and indies.

They give free use of the swimming pool to local primaries
They have specialist sports teachers (wholly paid for by the indy) who visit local state primaries and teach sports (particularly with an aim of widening participation in some minority sports).
They have frequent in-school events (science lessons/photography events/DT events/music events/drama events/art classes etc ) using their facilities provided for free to local state schools (including providing transport in the school owned minibuses).
They give free use of their theatre for local schools to hold their school plays/nativities.
They wholly fund and host the local after school orchestra, which is open to any child at any school in the borough who has reached grade 4. This includes hosting the concerts in their theatre, with refreshments at no cost to attendees or participants.
They support the local foodbank, and make regular donations
They host a Christmas dinner for local elderly people on Christmas day, staffed by volunteers with food costs wholly paid for by the school.
They have a specific outreach programme where they fund activities on the local deprived estate. They also have a specific scholarship/bursary programme ringfenced to children from that estate. This is in addition to the normal range of bursaries offered.

Those would be the first things cut if they lost charitable status.

Most people have no idea how much charitable work many private schools do, and have this bizarre misconception that they're all sitting around eating lobster and being handed their qualifications on a plate. That's really not the case. They are normal children, having normal schooling. The chasm between state and private is due to the underfunding of the state system by the government, and the inequality in state school admissions and not the fault of private schools.

Ironically, my children go private because we couldn't afford the £2mill required to buy a property in the catchment of the best state school in the area, nor were we entitled to a place in the church school which is the other decent school in the area. So we had the choice of school fees or a school when 19% of pupils attained 5 A*-Cs inc Maths and English (at the time, it's improving now after having been in special measures). I wasn't happy with that school (for many reasons, not simply the results), but I would have been happy with either of the two states schools above, but I was excluded from them because for the first state school we weren't wealthy enough, and for the second state school we weren't religious. I really think the state system needs to sort its own inequalities out before going for the private sector.

It’s naive to think that removing charitable status from private schools and all that money will end up in the state schools, it won’t it will get pissed aWay on other things.

I send my son to private school because the local school is crap, my alternative was to move to a better catchment and get him into a better school. That doesn’t fix the one that is crap, it just creates a two tier system within the state system based on postcode.
What next, abolish private health…

If they take it off private schools they absolutely should take it off church/faith schools.

@mrsm43s so at least we need more transparency. Because our private school doesn’t behave like yours at all - does nothing for the local community apart from charge for swimming pool use.

my dc went to private primary as it was actually cheaper for us considering school was open for before and after school and during school holidays from 7:30 to 18:00 with lots of activities provided.

[quote Placido]@MarshaBradyo their main swing was brexit. But that is done now so what next to keep them?[/quote]
So etching along the same emotive lines we’ll see though - they tend to get closer to what public want than Labour have recently.

Like I say I’ll vote for whoever delivers policies closest to what I want and VAT isn’t it either.

Also I very much question the smoke and mirror promises of taking £500 or whatever it is off 5% of student population and talking about shaking up 93% with that money.

People posting about new buildings, extra staff and orchestras sounds like pie in the sky with that money.

And the party offering it sounds economically highly wishful and misleading.

About time.

@kowari

What percent are in private schools? What percent of those are likely to leave?

In my city 25% are in private schools and every single state school is either very nearly full ( not completely full thanks to portacabins popping up in playgrounds) or already over subscribed. None with comfortable free space. Doesn't seem the best idea

For every child in private secondary school, the government “saves” £5,000. That is, the amount per child given in the state sector.

If, over time, 10% of those currently privately educated are no longer able to attend and move back into the state sector then that would cost the government in the region of £307.5 million. Back of a fag packet calculation but not a number to be sniffed at

Yes, if an unintended consequence is driving a proportion of private schools out of business, then this is a very expensive policy

Any school that couldn't survive could go into the state sector. Staff still employed and buildings utilised

The government doesn't own the buildings, and would have to buy them. That is also an expensive policy

Private school buildings will generally be unsuitable to be turned into state schools, so it's more likely they'll be turned into apartments/hotels, etc.

And don't overlook he effect on Sixth Form provision. It's 7% of the whole school population, all ages. But 18% of Sixth Formers (non-compulsory years, do smaller numbers, but still a big proportion to fund.

The status of nurseries would have to be considered if the proposal of VAT on fees to education establishments ever came to pass. Ditto universities. They would be some of the simpler issues to solve, but you still need a competent administration o ensure that des not happen. This lot is a joke, Labour is untested

How much extra would each state child get?

£27? Anyone want to work it out

Enough for a few pencils and a whiteboard maybe. But you’re going to have to squash more in.

Make sure you know what is being voted for - other than it’ll be fantastic and equalising

The top private schools will have no problem turning into businesses. Most of their parents will be millionaires/oligarchs etc comfortably able to pay more.

The problem will be with the smaller/specialist private schools, where the parents are "normal" working people who go without holidays/car leases, etc to pay the fees. They'll be the ones likely to be priced out leading to school closures.

As always, a policy popular in the media with potentially serious consequences in the real world.

@MarshaBradyo

How much extra would each state child get?

£27? Anyone want to work it out

Enough for a few pencils and a whiteboard maybe. But you’re going to have to squash more in.

Make sure you know what is being voted for - other than it’ll be fantastic and equalising

But that's what Labour are all about and why they keep losing elections. They're not about improving peoples' lives. They're about punishing the privileged.

@Badbadbunny hang on, like or loathe Tony Blair he made some real differences to state educated children in my area.

I work in an school in an extremely deprived area. Every year we've managed send 2 dc to a very prestigious private school on a 105% bursary by supporting them through the scholarship process, where the state alternative is the school ranked the worst in the country for secondary schools. Surely this is the types of dc who will be disadvantaged from such a move. Those with wealthy parents will just suck up the extra.

The question is simply private schools charities? They are not educational charities for those who would otherwise go without. Some posters have said some great examples of where pricate schools have gone above and beyond for the local area and underprivileged kids and that’s obviously fantastic but doesn’t change the fact that they are private businesses. Lots of businesses work hard to improve the local area and there is no reason that should stop for private schools, but that doesn’t change the fact they are businesses not charities.

I haven't read the full thread. I have always thought that private schools should not have charitable status. However, I am disappointed that yet again politics has to be so binary and confrontational. Surely the Labour party have enough issues to challenge the Conservatives without going for the low hanging fruit.

The way to close private schools is to improve state schools. Only very few parents want to spend crazy money on school fees, for most it’s about the smaller class sizes, fewer changes in teachers & better extra curricular opportunities. Things all children would benefit from. The major public schools are a distraction as there are so few of them but take up lots of media space.

@LizziesTwin

The way to close private schools is to improve state schools. Only very few parents want to spend crazy money on school fees, for most it’s about the smaller class sizes, fewer changes in teachers & better extra curricular opportunities. Things all children would benefit from. The major public schools are a distraction as there are so few of them but take up lots of media space.

And yet one in particular seems to produce a hell a lot of prime ministers for no real reason other than our terrible class system.

@CarrieBlue

About time.

But why?

The parents of indy kids are paying taxes, funding the state school system in part, and then not using that system.

If the schools, presumably including nurseries, can't afford to run because of paying tax, they'll be forced to up fees. Which will result in (nursery provision) government paying more I. The childcare scheme. Parents being out priced and moving to state sector. Entire schools shutting down, resulting in unemployment and no tax revenue source. Then say a school of 400 kids has to go somewhere. Yes let's say the majority move to another private school... But it's feasible that a lot would be forced to state sector. Where there's no spaces and lack of money.... So some schools and nurseries stay open. And the gov gets X £100m.

Will it have made a difference in the long term? They'll have to fund the additional state places...

All state schools that are academies, which is now more than 50% of the state system are non-profit charitable trusts. So I would interested to know how Starmer will differentiate between Academies and private independent schools in removing their charitable status!